04-22-2003, 01:58 PM | #201 | |
Enting
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I would have to look again at the EE of FOTR to see if you are correct in the former, but he certainly does call him "Mister" Frodo, which is hardly the sort of thing that one does with a contemporary. Since Frodo is not 50 years old (as he was in the book) but is in fact about Sam's age, why should Sam call him "Mister", even if he never called him "Master"? Remember, neither Merry or Pippin call Frodo "Mister", so that means that Sam has a very different relationship with Frodo. Oh, and by the way, you do not address Sam's being under the window in the middle of the night! If you are going to address one point, it would be wise to address them all! Frankly, there is no real establishment of these inter-relationships in the films which seriously affects the story - and not for the better.
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04-22-2003, 02:47 PM | #202 | |
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Elfhelm: I completely agree with you re: Tolkien being the ultimate authority to which all arguments must bow. As BoP said, he was perhaps too close to LotR to see it completely as the reader could see it. I believe that in regards to a work of art, the artist is forced to give up some of his authority on it to the viewer of the work, because to me, a large aspect of art is interpretation. Tolkien may have wanted it to be all about "facts," but as he created it, it simply could not be thus, as soon as it was published. Re: general comment regarding differences between film and literature: Jackson found it necessary to exaggerate some (or many) characters and events to convey certain points and ideas to his viewers. This accounts for some of the Merry and Pippin stuff (as well as other stuff), although it could be rightly argued that he took it too far (no pun intended -- TOOK it too far ). |
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04-22-2003, 03:07 PM | #203 | |||
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04-22-2003, 04:09 PM | #204 | |
Enting
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As far as Sam's "social station": most Americans are not culturally attuned to differences in "social station". However, a servant could be understood as someone who might refer to his employer as "Mister". Yet, this relationship is hardly established either in the party scene between Frodo and Sam or in the scene where the two are returning from the inn. And, if Sam had seen something untoward at Bag End (always assuming that after a night of imbibing in the inn he would have noticed much of anything), given his rather straightforward personality, he would doubtless have come straight in the front door and not wandered about in the shrubbery! He would hardly have been much help to Frodo - had he needed any - crawling around outside! Finally with regard to something "in between" LOTR and notLOTR: I do not believe you can hold up either Bakshi or Rankin-Bass as criteria. Neither of them - however sincerely and earnestly their creators tried to produce LOTR - can be considered a success. On the other hand, I do not believe that either was attempting to do anything more than present a story; no attempt was made (other than editing and combining various elements for time) to produce in depth, the work's vision as we were assured would be the case with Jackson's endeavor. However, when all was said and done, Jackson deviated more from the actual story than either of the earlier works. It rather reminds me of Frodo and Aragorn's conversation about servants of the enemy who "look fair and feel foul".
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04-22-2003, 04:49 PM | #205 | |||
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Regarding Sam sneaking up to the window to eavesdrop rather than going in the front door--I do seem to recall Professor Tolkien writing something about that subject. Quote:
Last edited by Black Breathalizer : 04-22-2003 at 04:50 PM. |
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04-22-2003, 05:41 PM | #206 | |
Enting
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And, frankly, what passes for "success" in today's culture is certainly no guarantee of either quality or worth.
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Mrs. M. "A Queen among farmer's wives" Last edited by Mrs. Maggott : 04-22-2003 at 05:43 PM. |
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04-22-2003, 05:52 PM | #207 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Re: Authority of the Author: This whole thing is, quite frankly, rather ridiculous, IMO. I mean, if the author says something about his own work, and someone else says, "You don't know anything, you're wrong"; I must be stupid, because this does not seem right to me.
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04-22-2003, 05:59 PM | #208 | |
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04-22-2003, 06:07 PM | #209 |
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Ok this is kind of weird but here is the way I see it.
Lets say you have a pot of soup (type dosn't matter). If you made another pot but only used a little bit of this ingredient, alot more of another ingredient, and completely take out other ingredients, what are you left with? Not the same soup as in the first pot. The ingredents that make LotR great, for me atleast, are the characters, dialoge, character interaction, the history that led up to the story, and I could go on and on. But to change, re-arrange, or omit any of the ingredients is to change the story. The story of LotR is not just about the destruction of the Ring, or the Domination of Man, it is every little detail in the story from the Prologue to the Appendix. Aother thing that really makes me laugh about the movies is that PJ actually put corn in. He had no idea that what Tolkien called corn in the books is actually wheat. But again PJ must know what Tolkien meant more then Tolkien did himself.
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04-22-2003, 06:08 PM | #210 | |
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Note: This is a dramatization.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 04-22-2003 at 06:11 PM. |
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04-22-2003, 06:11 PM | #211 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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P. S. Ocassional. Hah.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-22-2003, 07:25 PM | #212 | |
Enting
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If you read the Shippey books, you will see just how much craftsmanship went into LOTR. To simply "change" things in order to give the audience an extra 10 minutes of cyberwarfare is mindless to say the least. Tolkien's story required a great deal of care in translating it to film. There were plenty of opportunities for drama, comedy, action etc. without the need to bring in extraneous plot threads and pointless nonsense. Indeed, there was so much in the story, I cannot think of one "purist" who did not understand the necessity of cutting out the Old Forest-Bombadil-Barrowdowns thread for the sake of time and plot clarity. So I disagree strongly with all the harangue about the fact that we demanded a word-for-word translation of the book to the screen in order to be satisfied - because it isn't true. We did, however, demand a certain faithfulness to Tolkien's vision and the essential meaning of the tale, both of which were totally ignored by Mr. Jackson and his screenwriters.
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04-22-2003, 07:34 PM | #213 | |
Enting
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04-22-2003, 08:13 PM | #214 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Understand, but that doesn't mean I gotta like it.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-22-2003, 08:17 PM | #215 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I take it that your daughter likes the movies more than you do?
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04-22-2003, 08:39 PM | #216 |
Enting
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I'm not too sure. I know she liked the first one but interestingly enough, when she saw the EE at our house, she kept saying, "Why did he leave that out! It doesn't make sense otherwise!" all through the film! We haven't spoken much about TTT, however and I don't know if she has purchased the DVD or is waiting for the EE of that. She of course, is looking forward to ROTK with less trepidation than I, but then, she's still young and optimistic!
Her husband, on the other hand, loves the films. But then, he's never read the book!
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04-22-2003, 08:43 PM | #217 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Is the DVD out yet? Thought it was in June...
Yep, that certainly makes sense. I know a few who have never read the book, but loved the movies. One of them has started reading the book (in a half-hearted way...but then again, I think he's a bit half-hearted when it comes to reading in general), and the other says he will after RotK comes out.
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04-23-2003, 08:57 AM | #218 | |||
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04-23-2003, 10:35 AM | #219 | |
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In the book, the focus of the breaking of the fellowship is exclusively on Frodo screwing himself up to leave the others and make a go of it alone. In the film, the early arrival of the uruk-hai allowed the entire fellowship to work as a team to keep the quest of the ringbearer alive. Talk about a powerful illustration of key themes! Speaking for myself and the audience members I've seen, people were very moved by the way every member of the team (except Boromir) helps the Ringbearer--and even Boromir redeems himself by coming to the aid of Merry & Pippin in the end. So do these "deviations" weaken Frodo's character? Absolutely not! As far as anyone in the fellowship knew (with the exception of Aragorn), they would be joining Frodo again as soon as they got rid of the orcs. But Frodo screwed himself up and decided to go it alone. It was the most moving moment in the films thus far. True bravery isn't the absence of fear, it's proceeding when you're scared to death. The audience identified with Frodo at that moment and he instantly became the emotional "everyman" for the films that Tolkien created for the books. This was one of THE key underpinnings of the books. If Jackson doesn't create Tolkien's everyman (as the animated versions clearly failed to do), the series doesn't succeed on the most fundamental level. |
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04-23-2003, 12:37 PM | #220 | |
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