Oh no hes gone for a cheasy ending (spoilers)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Ararax
now what i heard was after sauron knocks aragonr down jar jar binks pulls off his mask and everyone finds out that its actualy isduler, then he kills sauron who pulls of his own mask and is revealed to be jar jar BINKS!

O.O

............. ACK! Please... no!!!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Oh, come on. Surely you can see how it'd increase the tension and drama, and overall improve Tolkien's story?

[Curufinwe]

I think it is very unfortunate that everyone's gut reaction is oh no! how could they do THAT?!
Film and high epic literature are about as different as entertainment media as you can get. As a reader of the epic think of your impression of Sauron through the first four books. He is imposing, he is ancient, he is timeless, he is omnipresent through minions and narration and diaglogue that is left out of the movie becuase of time - or simply because narration is an ineffective plot device in film. Sauron appearing in physical form at the black gate is certainly less greivous than the representations of Faramir and especially Treebeard in the TTT film. Sauron has had about 3 shots total in all of the films and Saruman has been the foil in the first two films outside the first fifteen minutes. As for Aragorn fighting Sauron that makes total sense when you consider his true epic hero beowulf style role in film and the written word where Gandalf represents, for lack of a better word, other purer motive and total lack of desire for almost anything - certainly not power. This change is minor compared to what PJ has done particularly with the aforementioned characters and with the elves (Arwen as bubbling teenager, third age lets jump back into things! I mean comon) and I really don't have a problem with it as a FILM device. You have to enter the theater with an understanding that you are watching PJs Middle-Earth which is pretty damn faithful to most of the professor's vision in most ways and I believe he has done a fairly good job of making an entertaining and still morally relevant film.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I disagree that it's "pretty damn faithful", but I do agree that it's still entertaining. A bit hollywood cliche, perhaps, but probably the best-made (if not best-interpreted) fantasy around.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Curufinwe
...Sauron appearing in physical form at the black gate is certainly less greivous than the representations of Faramir and especially Treebeard in the TTT film. .... As for Aragorn fighting Sauron that makes total sense when you consider his true epic hero beowulf style role in film ....

Those character changes were VERY upsetting! But only the tip of the iceburg.

I am VERY upset that PJ made Faramir a morally week, greedy, power hungry jerk. A completely different Faramir from the book. The book sets Faramir up as a noble man! With noble intentions! How is Eowyn going to fall in love with movie Faramir! She can't!!! She has high standards! She is a SHIELD MAIDEN of the ROHIRIM!! For crying out loud! How is this horrible bastarization of Faramir going to measure up to noble Aragorn? I don't understand how you can not see the ramification of these changes?

I pose this question to you: How much of Tolkien's works have you actually read? I will assume some, since your nic is Fëanor, that you at least know some. Although, I could be wrong.

(BTW, and FYI: Beowulf and LotR are 2 different stories and Beowulf was not written by Tolkien. )

If you recall from The Sil (or from any of the HoME books, etc) Sauron is a Maia that was mentored by Morgoth/Melkor. There are very few times when Morgoth actually stood physically against his enemies, and only when he was sure to win with little risk to himself. He is deceptive, a coward, greedy, and always, ALWAYS behind the scenes putting other's lives on the field of battle not his, having others die and fight in his stead. He is the essense of EVIL.

It makes NO SENSE AT ALL for Sauron not to have learned from his master. It makes NO SENSE AT ALL that Sauron suddenly turns brave and noble and faces his enemy on the field of battle. What could be worse than for PJ to turn the pupil of EVIL into a genuinely brave and noble entity that fights hand to hand against Aragorn.

You talk about FILM DEVICES. Some of the most successful horror movies did not show you the full creature/enemy or did not show you all of what happened on the screen, only a quick glimpse of the victim's fear and then that is it. What could be more frightening than what you can picture in your own mind? Why is the audience in fear of Sauron? Because we have only the Lidless Eye to behold and not a body. We are not afraid of Saruman. Why? Because he looks like anyone else. What device has PJ up his sleeve? Will he give Sauron 7 heads that breathe fire? Will Sauron have no skin, just a fleshy ghoul (blood dripping from his body) that has no skull covering his throbbing brain, two sets of teeth like sharp razors ripping the flesh off of his victims as he sweeps through the throngs of his enemy to face Aragorn one on one? Puh-lease!

[Curufinwe]

Well it does seem that you've have missed the point Runiel, I'm not getting the mud and slinging like everyone else. I have read every single piece of published material on middle earth and the Lord of the Rings at least two dozen times. I am well aware that beowolf is a norman legend dating back to the 10th century and that Tolkien was not the author. Tolkien was a professor of Middle English at my alma matter oxford where he studied beowulf in depth and it most clearly effected his work on Middle-Earth, I was making a parallel between Aragorn and the ancienct Beowulf style hero vs. Frodo the uncertain modern hero - men similar to the Tolkien fought with in WWI.
What you are missing is that the movies were not made with an assumption that the audience has read the written work. This is PJ's Middle-Earth I can't stress this enough it is NOT the film version of the literature. Of course if you've read the legends of the first age you understand Sauron's tutiledge etc. but the average audience member or even the average reader of the hobbit and the Lord of the Rings has no idea because it has not been represented and does not need to be. Sauron does not appear throughout as some rampaging warlord throughout he's barely mentioned or represented because we have no narration or inner monologue to express the fear of him that our heros feel in the text. Sauron is barely directly represented at all in the literature this is unbearablie in film, I would like for you to cite one example of a horror film in which the main evil was not directly represented and confronted in the climax. More importantly this is not horror.
Also if you look back Sauron has put himself at person risk many times see Finrod, Huan, Eregion, meeting with Fingolfin, Ar-Pharazon, and the Last Alliance he is much more hands on that Melkor. Ideally he shouldnt be there, realistically the movie needs a climax.
P.S. What is brave and noble about a Maia taking on a mortal man?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

With Ar-Pharazon, he took the least brave way out. His hordes had fled, and rather than face him, and fight him in battle, he allowed himself to be taken captive, and corrupted his courts from within (not that they weren't already partly corrupted ).

Eregion, he was disguised in a form that the Elves did not recognise; even those who did not trust him I don't believe even thought of fighting him. As for Finrod and Huan, those were the days in which he was naught but a (mighty) servant of Morgoth, bound to His will.

Also, I believe Tolkien stated in LOTR that Sauron would not come forth from his stronghold, and watch in triumph until the FINAL VICTORY. Considering the vast expanses of Middle-earth that were not at all under His dominion, I would certainly not think that a battle at the entrance to His land was the final victory.

[Curufinwe]

Oh and I forgot about Faramir, I agree with you that the change in his character in TTT film was drastic and unnecessary. However I believe PJ needed to create drama of some kind having committed to pushing Cirith Ungol to the Third Film. I'm sure he did this to extend Frodo and Sam's screentime in the film as there are only three chapters in the ROTK dealing with their journey in Mordor. Faramir does in the end, change his mind, in a very unconvincing scene, but once we see how he has resists (mad, powerhungry) Denethor and his actions in defense of Gondor his character can be salvaged. And Treebeard there simply wasn't enough time to get a sense of his true character though I wasn't very happy with him either. But neither of these changes were thematic in nature just contextual.

[Curufinwe]

Alright apparently I made a mistake by suggesting the Sauron was more hands on for the purposes of this discussion, I made that comment with tongue squarely in cheek. Sauron the character in the epic Lord of the Rings, would not have come forth at that time to battle individually - although he was clearly not just a flaming eye if you believe that i suggest you re-read the literature this time carefully. I was merely pointing out a facet of his character different from Melkor and it really doesnt even have an impact on the film - he does come forth and battle on Mt. Doom and that is shown in the prolouge of sorts. He has then been mentioned throughout as the evil ringleader if he doesn't come forth the audience will be left unsatisfied - he has to show himself and be dealt with, these are movies people - not theater nor literature the white hat takes on the black hat even if he has an assist from a hobbit he wins.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Curufinwe
1)Alright apparently I made a mistake by suggesting the Sauron was more hands on for the purposes of this discussion, I made that comment with tongue squarely in cheek. Sauron the character in the epic Lord of the Rings, would not have come forth at that time to battle individually -....
2) I was merely pointing out a facet of his character different from Melkor and it really doesnt even have an impact on the film - he does come forth and battle on Mt. Doom and that is shown in the prolouge of sorts.
3) He has then been mentioned throughout as the evil ringleader if he doesn't come forth the audience will be left unsatisfied - he has to show himself and be dealt with, these are movies people - not theater nor literature the white hat takes on the black hat even if he has an assist from a hobbit he wins.

1) Thank you.
2) In that situation, where Sauron fights both Gil-galad and Elendil, it was completely different. Sauron was surrounded. He had sat back in safety sending his troops to battle with the armies of the Elves, Númenóreans, and Durin's Dwarves. This had gone on for 7 years. When finally the last siege was so great that it forced Sauron to come forth and battle in person with Gil-galad and Elendil, who were of course killed by him. The battle before Mordor is not expected to be the last battle. Sauron still seeks The One Ring, and he is confident that it will find it's way to him.

3) I will be unsatified if he comes forth. So, will others. Your last statement referring to movie people confirms what I have been saying all along. PJ has no intentions to hold true to Tolkien. He will only do what he thinks will draw the masses in. He will use the methods of Hollywood that have proven successful. He will turn this beautiful tale of Tolkien's into a Hollywood action film. How sad.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted in High Purish by Ruinel
PJ has no intentions to hold true to Tolkien. He will only do what he thinks will draw the masses in. He will use the methods of Hollywood that have proven successful. He will turn this beautiful tale of Tolkien's into a Hollywood action film. How sad.

Translated from High Purish to CinemaSavvy by Black Breathalizer
PJ has to be careful in translating Tolkien's story to film. He will need to carefully consider what will work for modern audiences around the world and use expert screenwriting techniques that have proven successful over the years. If he does, he will turn Tolkien's beautiful tale into a critically and commerically successful film that will be enjoyed by Tolkienite and non-Tolkienite alike. How great is that?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted in Unintelligible Babble by Black Breathalizer
PJ has to be careful in translating Tolkien's story to film. He will need to carefully consider what will work for modern audiences around the world and use expert screenwriting techniques that have proven successful over the years. If he does, he will turn Tolkien's beautiful tale into a critically and commerically successful film that will be enjoyed by Tolkienite and non-Tolkienite alike. How great is that?

Painstakingly translated from Unintelligible Babble by Ruinel
PJ is my lord and master. He wills me to speak to you as his devoted minion. I stand before all as his humble servant to tell you that he has no freakin' idea what he is doing. As a matter of fact, PJ (nor me, his obedient thrall) have read the books much. Sure, we skimmed it, but really, lets face it, we didn't understand the words. My Lord PJ shall conquer the dimly lit minds of the vaguely moronic masses with his own tale that has nothing to do with the actual story as told by Tolkien.

[Black Breathalizer]

I can't believe I'm actually saying this to a sworn arch-enemy, but for a nose-always-in-the-books, whiney, lowlife, Purist, you ain't half bad.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer


I can't believe I'm actually saying this to a sworn arch-enemy, but for a nose-always-in-the-books, whiney, lowlife, Purist, you ain't half bad.

Translation: I can't believe Ruinel is slammin' me around like a broken bumper car.

[Sheeana]

I have a pimple on my butt.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Thanks for sharing that, BoP. Gave me a good laugh.

[Sheeana]

I named it Peter Jackson, and now I'm going to squeeze it.

(You're very welcome GW.)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer


I can't believe I'm actually saying this to a sworn arch-enemy, but for a nose-always-in-the-books, whiney, lowlife, Purist, you ain't half bad.

Oh, damn.. I laughed for a good solid 3 minutes over this. Now, finally, my laughter has died down to the point where I can actually type. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Sheeana
I have a pimple on my butt.

Now that's a cheesy ending.

[Curufinwe]

For once in all of the discussion I want someone to explain to me in what sense PJ has not represented the themes present in the Lord of the Rings. I don't want characters and I don't want what he left out. I want someone to explain to me in a rational coherent way how PJ has not "been true" to Tokien. Tolkien calls upon universal moral and christian themes PJ does this in spades. Tell me how please.