12-03-2003, 12:03 PM | #201 | ||
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Gwaimir, "Christian Europe" did not invent Morality. Haven't you taken philosophy? Quote:
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12-03-2003, 12:04 PM | #202 | ||
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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I decide what is "good" and "bad" from what I think is best/worst for most people. Hurting or killing someone is bad-Reason? It hurts someone, not just the one killed/hurt but also the person's family, friends, etc. Stealing is bad. Reason? The person stolen from may miss the object(s), or the object(s) may have been very valuable so (s)he may get big problems now that the object(s) gone. Quote:
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 12-03-2003 at 12:06 PM. |
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12-03-2003, 12:12 PM | #203 | |
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12-03-2003, 12:15 PM | #204 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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Just what I meant.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 12-03-2003 at 12:16 PM. |
12-03-2003, 12:26 PM | #205 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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it could be argued that this morality is stronger than a christian one, since it is a belief in the strength of the concept of morality itself, for it's own sake, and not just a response to something you are expected to do either way, a moral life is ~ obviously ~ achievable whether you believe in god or not btw ~ i would also guess that there were many moral people around before the advent of christianity |
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12-03-2003, 12:36 PM | #206 | |
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Check the dialogue between the Athenians and the Melians from Thucydides- if you can answer that, we're ready to move onto the Marquis de Sade 101
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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12-03-2003, 12:42 PM | #207 |
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I'm not an atheist, but I am no way a "believer" in anything, especially religion, so I think this counts for me, too.
I don't have a source of morality other than the reality in which Il live. Both the Plato and Einstein statements describe me, as well as "common sense" and "empathy." If any single thought guides my actions, it is "what if all persons acted this way?" It might be simple, but it works, and to me it seems more sincere than being "moral" out of fear, which is the basis of religious morality.
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A citizen runs to the fire department yelling that he's spotted a roaring blaze from his car. "WHERE IS IT?" the fire department asks, pen ready. "It rises like some brooding , glaring trail of cosmic fury from- " "WHERE? WHERE?" "Oh. Well, it blazes up from a crimson-sheathed visage brooding darkly above the haunted towers of impotent indignity which, like melons hovering unhappily over lifetimes of empty meaning which-" "THE ADDRESS!" "Oh. Oh, I didn't notice. But look for a brooding, glaring trail of cosmic fury rising from a crimson-sheathed visage-" They lead him back to his car, and send him on. -- Philip K. Dick "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." -- Diderot |
12-03-2003, 12:43 PM | #208 | |
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12-03-2003, 01:09 PM | #209 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I have just got to say : I seriously doubt that!
But like you, I'm too lazy to look up the stats!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-03-2003, 01:18 PM | #210 |
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Well, probably, because the criminal population reflects the general population. Most criminals in India are Hindus, most criminals in Israel are Jews, most criminals in Pakistan are Muslims, most criminals in France are atheists.
I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Waiting for enlightenment.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
12-03-2003, 01:18 PM | #211 |
Elf Lord
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Well, probably, because the criminal population reflects the general population. Most criminals in India are Hindus, most criminals in Israel are Jews, most criminals in Pakistan are Muslims, most criminals in France are atheists.
I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Waiting for enlightenment.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
12-03-2003, 01:25 PM | #212 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
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an example, i tell my kid not to steal something, he probably doesn't understand all the implications involved, but he listens to me since i am the ultimate authority as far as he's concerned... this is fine for the moment, but ultimately i hope that he learns not to steal for it's own sake (the personal reprecussions as well as the hurt it may cause to another)... i know that i will not always be the ultimate authority over his actions... i don't want to be... i expect that over time he will learn that living morally is the best thing for himself and those around him in the long run which makes me think of a few other witty religious quotes Quote:
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12-03-2003, 01:40 PM | #213 | |
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Religions in Prison It was a poll taken in 1997 by the Federal Bureau of Prisons of 74731 inmates. Of those surveyed... 156 were Atheists. That's 0.209% of the entire population. Of the remaining prisoners... 59974 were Christian of some sort... that's 80.253% of the population of prisoners surveyed. Interesting. |
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12-03-2003, 01:46 PM | #214 | |
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These are prisons in the US. I don't know what it's like elsewhere... one more thing about populations... Another poll shows that Christianity makes up roughly 76.5% of the population, but Atheism makes up 0.4%. |
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12-03-2003, 02:48 PM | #215 | |
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 12-03-2003 at 02:53 PM. |
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12-03-2003, 02:54 PM | #216 | |
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As an Atheist, I consider torture to be wrong because it inflicts harm on another person. Not because if I do so I will receive a punishment or not receive a reward when I die. |
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12-03-2003, 03:14 PM | #217 | |||||
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Ru: Did I say it did? I thought I'd made it clear in several places that I have no such delusion. I merely said that much of the morals of today's society is a leftover of Christian Europe; not that Christendom invented it.
Falagar: Would it be wrong to kill someone who had no friends or family? Would it be wrong to embezzle money from a multi-trillion dollar company? Jenkins: Quote:
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Zinnite: At least as far as Christianity is concerned (can't speak for other religions) your statement is completely false, and, to borrow a phrase, BULL PUCKY! I do NOT attempt to live a moral life because I'm afraid of God, I don NOT do so because I'm afraid of hell! I do it for the opposite reason; because I LOVE God. To say that if religious people are moral, it's just because their afraid is no better than saying that Atheists are amoral (though I'm sure Ru would disagree ). Quote:
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Ruinel: You can't define a Christian just by someone who calls themselves Christian. Plenty of people call themselves Christians without believing in Jesus; I personally know someone who said he was a Christian, because he believed that Jesus was an actual person. When I asked if he thought he was the Messiah, he said, "Well, I'll find out after I die." Now really, such a thing can not be considered Christian belief. As Guillame mentioned, many people call themselves Catholic while rejected fundamental doctrines, such as the Trinity. For many people who call themselves Christians, Christianity is an inherited trait. Many people are Baptist, or Anglican, or Catholic, or Evangelical, for no real reason other than that their parrents were; heck, at this point, that pretty well describes my brother, though he's probably more into religion than many. A definition of cultural Catholic: Quote:
My point is this: simply because someone calls himself Christian, does not mean he is. If you go to church at Christmas and/or Easter, that does not make you a Christian.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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12-03-2003, 03:17 PM | #218 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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"I consider torture to be wrong because it inflicts harm on another person. Not because if I do so I will receive a punishment or not receive a reward when I die."
As far as I can tell, you grew up as a pretty nominal Catholic; nominal Christianity (or Catholicism ) generally tends to present this inaccurate view of things, so it's understandable. However, it has often been stated by Christians that we don't believe in doing good to avoid hell or to get an extra jewel in your crown; IIRC, such a skewed version of Christianity was one of the main reasons that led to Elfhelm's detestation thereof. Please, try not to misrepresent the Christian religion in the future, even if it does seem to be your least favourite (or most unfavourite). A question: basically, the commonly agreed upon statement has been that the rule of judgment between right and wrong is whether or not it wrongs other people. Now, a question, which I have never heard an answer to that I remember: Why is it wrong to wrong others? Please note: I mean NO DISRESPECT to atheists, or anything of the kind. But, if we are all no more than animals, with no purpose other than the propagation of our own genes, then why is it wrong to hurt another person? I am not saying that it is not wrong from the secular view; I am merely saying that I don't know WHY it is, and would be initerested in finding out.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
12-03-2003, 04:21 PM | #219 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i believe that most of the popular religions that have survived the test of time are those that embrace ideals that reflect common sense... and drop, or never had, the ideals that are contrary to it... this is true of almost all christian religions... i see this religious evolution as a good thing i didn't think you we're saying athiest's were immoral G... i was just stating what i see as the obvious, those who do not believe in a god at all often live very moral lives, so whether you buy my "why" above or not, it is a fact that one can live a moral life with absolutely no belief in a higher being |
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12-03-2003, 04:33 PM | #220 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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