03-16-2004, 05:08 AM | #201 | |
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Again - I don't recall particulars... I think there may have been more than one Herod after Herod the Great, but not sure. There was a 'Herod the Tetrarch'... and I THINK he's the one who was ruling during the time of Jesus' ministry and the early years of the church. There WAS a Herod on the throne at the time though... and this was a provincial kingship... under the rulership of Rome, with somewhat limited powers and subject to the Roman governor. (EDIT: there was also a 'Herod Antipas'... don't recall for sure if that's just another title for the Tetrarch or not... will have to check my study Bible... unless someone else knows this. )
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03-16-2004, 11:25 AM | #202 | |
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there is a good chance that the biblical stories are based on a real person and real events... but the idea that the literal gospels have been practically proven to be completely accurate is way over the top
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03-16-2004, 08:34 PM | #203 |
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Looking in my Bible dictionary...there are 4 people known as Herod (the something or other).
1. Herod the Great, "king of the Jews". 40-4 B.C. He was the Herod alive when Jesus was born. 2. Herod the Ethnarch (or Archelaus). He was Herod the Great's son and only reigned for two years. 3. Herod the tetrarch (or Antipas). He was also Herod the Great's son, and he was the ruler who had John the Baptist executed. He was the one who married Herodias, the wife of his half-brother. This was the Herod that Pilate sent Jesus to for judgement. 4. "Herod the king". Grandson of Herod the Great. His death is recorded in Acts 7:20+.
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. Last edited by Mercutio : 03-16-2004 at 08:37 PM. |
03-16-2004, 11:04 PM | #204 | |||
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Meanwhile, the gospels have been accused of being incorrect in various places, and evidence has constantly turned up that they were correct. Again, I can cite examples, if you need them. I have already provided evidence from the accounts of Josephus and Tacitus, who are sources from outside the Bible. I sent a detailed post in response to BeardofPants' request for evidence, and none of it has as yet been debated. As you challenged my statement that I did have further evidence, I have above provided more of it. As yet, you have provided no evidence to debunk what is broadly accepted as fact (and not only by Christians), that Jesus lived and was crucified. Quote:
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03-17-2004, 11:28 AM | #205 | |
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any report is questionable... just watch cnn and then fox report the "news" about the same event and you will see this even today there is a fine, but very important line between "probably what happened" and "exactly what happened"
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03-17-2004, 11:45 AM | #206 | |
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03-17-2004, 02:08 PM | #207 |
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Here's a link to the a history of the Herods and a diagram of the family tree.
http://community.gospelcom.net/Brix?pageID=2746 \ http://community.gospelcom.net/Brix?pageID=3411
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03-17-2004, 06:38 PM | #208 |
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edit: whoops!
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. Last edited by Mercutio : 03-17-2004 at 06:46 PM. |
03-17-2004, 06:44 PM | #209 | |
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Apparently Antipas was banished/exiled (he was accused as being a plotter against some political guy) in AD 39, and Agrippa was given power at some point by Caligula (Gaius). Agrippa died in AD 44. brownjenkins: please see this post for my argument for the credibility of the Bible. http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...&pagenumber=44
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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03-18-2004, 05:59 AM | #210 | |
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03-18-2004, 10:40 AM | #211 | |
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I used to think that it was pretty amazing that Jesus should die after only.. I think it was three hours on the cross, when it usually took three days from a victim of crucifixion to die. But after realizing the reality of what Jesus was put through beforehand, I can say that it's a small wonder that he made it to the cross.
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03-18-2004, 06:01 PM | #212 | |
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03-19-2004, 07:00 AM | #213 | ||||||
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I've given a lot of detailed arguments and evidences on this thread, and none of them has been argued yet except by fairly broad, sweeping statements. Quote:
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As for the Bible, though the Roman sources confirm it, the Bible also gives evidence that this was the kind of beating that had happened. Jesus' statement "I thirst" was a consequence of the severe beating, and was because he had lost so much blood. His falling down while carrying the cross was a consequence of hypovolemic shock, which is a consequence of an individual losing huge amounts of blood. Quote:
There is definitely evidence that the flogging would have been in that way. There is also evidence that Jesus most definitely was crucified. The stab wound that he received from the spear was after he was dead. You seemed to roll your eyes at that account, somewhat. However, it actually is an extremely powerful argument for the credibility of John as a witness. He wrote that water and blood poured out. Quote:
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03-19-2004, 10:33 AM | #214 | |
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my issue is the implication that your beliefs are facts in a more general sense... while i will admit that the existance of jesus christ as a person who spoke of things 2000 years ago is provable one way or another, in the same sense that one could argue for ramses II's existance... the idea that he was the son of god is not... you either have faith or you do not... both are valid stances, but saying one stance is the true stance is not i believe this is a fairly simple yet important concept, but if you wish to discuss it further, we should probably limit it to the religion thread
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03-19-2004, 11:53 PM | #215 |
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Jesus himself said he was the Son of God.
John 5:19-30 "19 I assure you, the Son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and tells him everything he is doing, and the Son will do far greater things than healing this man. You will be astonished at what he does. 21 He will even raise from the dead anyone he wants to, just as the Father does. 22 And the Father leaves all judgment to his Son, 23 so that everyone will honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. But if you refuse to honor the Son, then you are certainly not honoring the Father who sent him. 24 "I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life. 25 " .And I assure you that the time is coming, in fact it is here, when the dead will hear my voice – the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live. 26 The Father has life in himself, and he has granted his Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge all mankind because he is the Son of Man. 28 Don't be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God's Son, 29 and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to judgment. 30 But I do nothing without consulting the Father. I judge as I am told. And my judgment is absolutely just, because it is according to the will of God who sent me; it is not merely my own
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03-22-2004, 10:35 AM | #216 |
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Finally saw it yesterday afternoon. Great depiction! Much of it was right out of Scripture... I imagine some of the rest was Catholic tradition, which doesn't bother me. Some thoughts & observations:
1. Someone mentioned that it takes three days for someone to die by crucifiction... I'm not sure about this. I believe death is normally by asphixiation... the way the arms are stretched out limits the amount of air the lungs can take in... and requires one to 'push up' routinely with the legs to catch a decent breath. This is why breaking the legs was fatal... no more 'push-ups'. In the Scriptural accounts, though there IS a storm, the legs were broken because the next day was a holy day and the Jews didn't want the bodies up there... they had to be dead and down by sunset (when the Jewish day changes). In any case, if one has been mistreated, I don't know if they could keep pushing up for three days... maybe not even without mistreatment. 2. Jesus DID perhaps die sooner than others who were crucified (from the Scripture, before both thieves), but not only had He been subjected to a lot of punishment before, He was also (by Christian belief) bearing the sins of all mankind... which to Him, a sinless god-man, was agonizing. 3. It's unlikely, I suppose, that the two thieves crucified with Jesus came to Golgotha unmarred... tortue, particularly beating, whipping, scourging, etc - were common precusors to those types of executions... If one was a noble or royal, you were given a quick decapitation... commoners got the worst kinds of capital punishment (ie, William Wallace's actual execution was worse than depicted in 'Braveheart' - but there was nothing special about it - any 'commoner' who was guilty of treason could expect the same). 4. Read earlier in the thread about the depiction of Satan... I think they pulled off the 'androgenous'... in fact, didn't recall if someone mentioned that Satan was played by an actress or simply that Satan appeared 'feminine'... and thought at first it was a male actor (though the former was true - actress). After the movie, the friends I went with mentioned they had missed the name of the actor... I had seen it and told them it was an actress and they were surprised. Mel Gibson said that they dubbed a man's voice in for Satan at the Garden of Gethsemane. 5. Depictions of Jewish leaders was right out of scripture... they always appear to either be afraid/jealous of Jesus' power and authority, or offended by his portrayals of them (He constantly confronted them with their own hypocrisy... much as He probably would do to church leaders today - we're ALL still a bit guilty of the big H at times) or they genuinely thought he was doing evil and blaspheming... and they certainly seem to have led the people in the latter. The people at-large though, seem to have decidedly mixed feelings about Jesus - both in Scripture and in the movie. 6. The Romans... again, I thought fair from Scripture. In fact, I was surprised at the behavior of the group who tortured Jesus. I expected a professional, stoic manner. But either I'm projecting on the Romans how I think British soldiers would be, or going on my own ideal notion of how a soldier would best conduct himself... OR, more likely perhaps, I started to wonder if a 'goon squad' like this, who were basically around to conduct torture and executions, might be made up of characters as depicted. I'll probably think of more later... I just wanted them to STOP beating Him!!! I KNEW how it would end, but I WANTED Pilot to let him off, I WANTED Him to call 10,000 Angels to His defense, I WANTED him to come down off the cross... but for the sake of our potential to be forgiven of our sins and have a relationship to God, those things didn't happen.
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03-22-2004, 11:19 AM | #217 | |
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seriously though, i'm glad you enjoyed it... i do plan to watch it one of these days, though probably on video btw dawningoftime, i know jesus said he was the son of god... my point was more towards whether or not the bible should be taken as myth or fact... or somewhere in between
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03-25-2004, 10:46 AM | #218 | |
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I guess everybody has different takes on this movie, and that's fine by me. It is, after all, just a movie. What I care most about is what it's based on- the Bible.
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It's New Years Day, just like the day before; Same old skies of grey, same empty bottles on the floor. Another year's gone by, and I was thinking once again, How can I take this losing hand and somehow win? Just give me One Good Year To get my feet back on the ground. I've been chasing grace; Grace ain't so easily found One bad hand can devil a man, chase him and carry him down. I've got to get out of here, just give me One Good Year! |
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03-25-2004, 04:30 PM | #219 |
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03-25-2004, 04:49 PM | #220 |
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