07-07-2003, 05:28 PM | #201 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Quote:
Creationists just don't want to connect the dots. They want to think of a species as being unchanging and their own little island. It's like seeing three frames of an animation of a person walking. The missing frames aren't there - but if you study it - you can see the movement of the foot forwad, then on the ground and then behind. You should be able to visualise the missing frames - and that's what evolution has to do. We're looking at an animation with some of the frames missing. Quote:
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07-07-2003, 05:59 PM | #202 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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YAAA!!! *does little Snoopy dance* glad to have our resident anthropology goddess in the house er... ahem... back to the subject... from Guns, Germs, and Steel
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 07-07-2003 at 06:04 PM. |
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07-07-2003, 08:54 PM | #203 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I didn't suggest that particular experiment because it is unscientifically testable/proveable. But experiments on genetic load/burden ARE testable, would you agree? I only mentioned sin as the philosophical reason behind why we might see shorter lifespans. sentence 2- Perhaps I didn't word my post well enough. We were talking about long lifespans, and the Biblical model shows longer lives, on the average, closer to Adam and Eve. Yes, the long lives are post-sin - of course they are, since no one died before sin came along! But there is a slow progression towards shorter life-spans as we get further along in time.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-07-2003, 09:07 PM | #204 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-07-2003, 09:13 PM | #205 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(this is WAY OT, but it's too serious to ignore, IMO)
Quote:
Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-07-2003 at 09:14 PM. |
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07-07-2003, 09:24 PM | #206 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
An entire class of sedimentary rock are chemical and biological in nature. Limestones are formed primarily from corals but also may include a wide variety of hard-shell invertebrates. Evaporites, rock made of the various salts of the ocean precipitated out at unique points of saturation for each (NaCl, NaSO4, CaSO4, etc) during evaporation of landlocked seas (like the Dead Sea). These non-clastic sedimentary rocks are often interbedded with clastic sedimentary rocks. For them to be rapidly deposited would require extremely bizarre circumstances. Corals growing at absurd rates, seas drying up in the middle of a global flood, diatoms breeding and dying in the blink of an eye. Examples of these types of mixed deposits can be identified all through the geologic column. Non single event like a great flood can accommodate these occurances.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-08-2003, 12:24 AM | #207 | |
The Original Amazonian Coconut
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completely ot, but this bothered me
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Okay, being raised in a religious family, the NIV is bad from that viewpoint. It takes out verses of salvation through grace rather than works and baptism. I apologise, but I was ingrained with an intolerant streak. Anyway-- Proof of the flood? To advocate the devil (or god rather) I read an article a while back about a whale fossil found, the whale was in a dive like position and layers upon layers of rock then sand and mud and sediment (or whatever) were found. The whale was in perfect condition. By evolutionary standards the perfect petrification of the whale would be impossible because the layers of rock--by there time tables--were all millions of years older than all the other layers. The only explanation would be a QUICK rising of water, and a rapid increase of turbulance, thus causing mud slides and such. The flood is the perfect oppurtunity for such.
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Hem, hem |
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07-08-2003, 12:35 AM | #208 |
The Original Amazonian Coconut
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compelling...
Can creationists present positive scientific evidence that the world was created less than 10,000 years ago. Scientific evidence would include for example a geological formation that would positively indicate that the world was less than 10,000 years old.
Along those lines, the creationist could present scientific evidence that: All animals and plants were created at the same time in the recent past. That a global flood took place in the recent past That all animals and plants radiated from a Common Point of origin in the Middle East in the recent past That olive trees can regenerate and grow new leaves within a few weeks of immersion in a global flood That eight people can effectively care for 16,000 animals on a ship for a year That a wooden ship of the dimensions of the ark could actually be built given Bronze Age tools and would be sea worthy. Creationist could prove the items by actually going out in the field and doing archeological expeditions with the goal of locating for example kangaroo fossils in say Pakistan or Indonesia. They could actually build an ark, using Bronze Age technology, staff it, stock it with supplies of their choice, and 16,000 animals of their choice, and sail it. They could try to locate Precambrian layers of rock in which, for example, reptiles, mammals, birds, and fish all appear at once. They could locate through research that biological barrier which prevents micro- evolution from becoming macroevolution. -----
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Hem, hem Last edited by wahine : 07-08-2003 at 12:37 AM. |
07-08-2003, 01:34 AM | #209 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Re: completely ot, but this bothered me
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-08-2003, 02:30 AM | #210 | |
Hoplite Nomad
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Re: compelling...
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Hey Kid, I am impressed. Behind those cocnuts lies....er behind that Hawaiian babe exterior lies the mind of a critical thinker. Kudos. That was one of the most succint and effecient rebuttals I have come across.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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07-08-2003, 10:14 AM | #211 |
The Original Amazonian Coconut
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*hides dictionary*
Thank you! *bows*
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Hem, hem |
07-08-2003, 11:03 AM | #212 | ||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
As has been pointed out, Darwin knew nothing of the genetic basis for inherited characteristics that would produce the raw differences for natural selection to act on, and subsequent discoveries could have easily falsified his theory. That over and over again the findings of genetics have supported the theory of evolution - random mutations, inheritability, nested hierarchies, the molecular clock, cladistics- is incredibly powerful evidence in it's favour. Puntuated equilibrium: Quote:
As for the supposed differences between the 'mechanism' of microevolution and macroevolution, it exists nowhere except in the imagination of the creationists. Macroevolution is simply the accumulation of enough changes to cause a division into two species; the fact that here are many recorded instances where biologists are unable to satisfactorily classify separate species is enough to show that the creationist ideas of fixed species are false. It is up to the creationists to show a mechanism that prevents changes from accumulating- we wait with bated breath.
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07-08-2003, 11:05 AM | #213 | |
Elf Lord
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Re: compelling...
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But why do scientific research when you can lobby state governments, threaten textbook printers, campaign for education board elections and hold public debates with the shotgun approach (and it's notable that YECs refuse to debate when the subject would be restricted to one particular aspect that could be explored in depth). I've lived through two Kuhnian scientific revolutions- the acceptance of plate tectonics in geology, and the Big Bang in astronomy. In neither case did the proponents of what were initially scorned and rejected theories (the very term Big Bang originated as an insult by Steady- Stater Fred Hoyle) resort to the tactics of Creationists. Instead they performed years of research, accumulated evidence from many sources and fields, strengthened their paradigm - and won the scientific debate.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 07-08-2003 at 11:20 AM. |
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07-08-2003, 11:42 AM | #214 |
Elf Lord
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And since this is supposed to be evidence for creationism (and by default YEC ) how about a timeline
answering a few questions like giving dates for the Creation, the Flood, the extinctions of the of the various flora and fauna etc. For example, were extinct animals on the Ark, or did they become extinct before that? All of them, or only some? Which ones? The fossil record should clearly show that- after all it's only a couple of thousand years.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
07-08-2003, 05:04 PM | #215 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
Now lifespans have been increasing over a relatively recent period of time as a result of better scientific understanding of principles of hygeine, nutrition, etc. (see people, I like science! as long as it doesn't improperly extrapolate theories ), but they are relatively small increases; IOW, I don't believe the advances in nutrition, etc. will ever be enough to overcome the negative effects around us and get us back to lifespans of 900 years.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-08-2003, 05:19 PM | #216 | ||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
However, just take out my incorrect use of "Neo-D" in my post, and please re-read it. Evolutionists will NOT give up the idea of macro evolution. Quote:
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However, if there were no observed mutations AT ALL, then I would agree that the mechanism of mutations must be abandoned. But just because negative and neutral mutations have been observed does not give you the logical right to assume beneficial ones; would you agree? Inheritability - good only if you can achieve a beneficial mutation. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-08-2003 at 05:23 PM. |
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07-08-2003, 05:20 PM | #217 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Quote:
If Creationism is true then why doesn't a new species just pop out of no where on my lawn?
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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07-08-2003, 05:23 PM | #218 |
Lord of the Pants
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Rian:
What about sickle cell anaemia then? And most mutations are NEUTRAL. Neither harmful, nor beneficial.
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07-08-2003, 05:27 PM | #219 | |
Lord of the Pants
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Quote:
This thread is rapidly turning into another "evolution" thread. Could we divert back to the topic at hand? I believe that we're waiting on evidence to be posted? |
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07-08-2003, 05:32 PM | #220 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Quote:
I think it's up to the creationists to prove creation and they can't - not withouth bringing religious belief into it.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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