Do we still need a space program?

[Earniel]

Has anyone listened to the sound files that Hughens taped? On themselves they're not really spectacular but when considering they're taped on a far-off planet they're rather cool.

[Earniel]

Don't tell me that they cut Hubble's maintenance budget! They can't do that!

[inked]

Yes, after the NASA command squelched human repair missions, the cost and untried (hell, uninvented!) robotic technology really cannot be justified. I hate to see it happen.

[Jonathan]

NASA's Cassini Discovers Potential Liquid Water on Enceladus

Where there's water, there might be life. If liquid water can be found on a tiny, rather unknown moon of Saturn, I'd say chances are good to find water on some of the other tiny moons as well. There are plenty of moons to examine in our solar system and if we can just get some water samples from one or a few of them, we might get an answer to one of our biggest questions - are we or are we not alone?

So do we still need a space programme? I think Cassini's promising discovery suggests that we do

[Earniel]

Wow, that's so cool! Go Cassini! *waves little Cassini support flag*

We still keep discovering new moons in our own backyard of the galaxy. I wonder when we'll ever have the time to visit and study them all properly.

All in all, I think on space-probe field, we've really been spoilt the last few years. Spirit and Opportunity, the Genesis project, Deep Impact, Cassini-Huygens, Hubble showing off again, New Horizons launched, etc...

I keep thinking we'll be starved in a couple of years because now we're seeing the result of planning and building of space probes that started years ago and only now are come into action. But now that NASA has to work with an ever thighter budget, I fear we'll only see the effects of that in a few years.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

All in all, I think on space-probe field, we've really been spoilt the last few years. Spirit and Opportunity, the Genesis project, Deep Impact, Cassini-Huygens, Hubble showing off again, New Horizons launched, etc...

Yeah, perhaps we're being spoilt. But as for me, I eagerly waited for many years and just died to see the results of projects such as Cassini-Huygens and Deep Impact years ago when they were still being planned. So I don't consider myself spoilt, since it was an awfully long wait for me and I counted the years it would take for the space probes to arrive to their destinations
It was worth the wait, the probes have sent some fascinating information back to earth.

[The Gaffer]

China has given notice of its increasing power in space - and provoked widespread international concern - with a successful test of an anti-satellite weapon that could be used to knock out enemy surveillance and communications craft.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/stor...994240,00.html

The Kraken Awakes?

[Lief Erikson]

That is definitely a worrisome technological increase on their part. Now that China has worked out this technology, it could devastate much for our country's conventional national defense, because we're so dependent on those satellites.

This, I think, is an argument to bring our old Star Wars program back to the table. Not that that's necessarily a good idea, but this would be an argument for it.

[The Gaffer]

Would Star Wars be technically capable of protecting these satellites? As I recall it couldn't even guarantee to take out incoming ICBMs.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

That is definitely a worrisome technological increase on their part.

Indeed. Like we need more debris out there. The junk in orbit is now already in frightening numbers, there's really no need to go blasting some more things to bits.

But if people are going to claim space again for their own, I'm going to get very cross.

[Earniel]

New Horizon visits Jupiter

Fastest lauch ever, indeed! In a year after its launch, New Horizon will visit Jupiter next month. I'm looking forward to the new material it'll will collect.

[Jonathan]

Jupiter already, yeah that was fast. But the most interesting material won't be collected until 2015 when New Horizons reaches its destination

[hectorberlioz]

On topic...

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Jupiter already, yeah that was fast. But the most interesting material won't be collected until 2015 when New Horizons reaches its destination

Indeed, 2015 will be most interesting. But the visit to Jupiter is a nice bonus, it's been a while since we've looked there. And now we've got better equipment.

But if you think about it, New Horizons is 'already' near Jupiter now, but still has to go eight years to Pluto, then Pluto really is a looooong way off!

[Jonathan]

I was going to say it hasn't been that long Cassini visited Jupiter but heh, that's still like six years ago. Time flies

New Horizons better travel fast. Every day Pluto goes farther and farther away from the Sun and its atmosphere freezes and gets just thinner. New Horizons better get there until Pluto's atmosphere disappears completely, so that we can study it. We won't get another chance for another 200 or so years.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Would Star Wars be technically capable of protecting these satellites? As I recall it couldn't even guarantee to take out incoming ICBMs.

I don't know enough about the project to say. I hope that it could do so and I really wish it could be implemented. Though from what I've heard, having missiles on satellites is controversial because then you could arm satellites with nuclear weapons and hit countries in such a quick space of time that they might not have the ability to react. So mutually assured destruction becomes less mutually assured. That's a risk.

But having our satellite technology made vulnerable is very worrisome to me.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Indeed. Like we need more debris out there. The junk in orbit is now already in frightening numbers, there's really no need to go blasting some more things to bits.

I've heard that that's true, but I've never seen information as to the extent of debris out there, or how much shattering mechanical objects up there would add to it. Do you happen to have any such information? If so, and the source doesn't look biased, I'd be very interested to see it.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

But if people are going to claim space again for their own, I'm going to get very cross.

Why? We claim land on Planet Earth. We claim parts of the ocean, especially nearby our geographical boundaries. We even claim airspace. Why shouldn't we claim parts of outer space?

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I've heard that that's true, but I've never seen information as to the extent of debris out there, or how much shattering mechanical objects up there would add to it. Do you happen to have any such information? If so, and the source doesn't look biased, I'd be very interested to see it.

Most people who read popular science magazines about space (I do!) know that space debris is a growing problem. It threatens satellites and manned space flights. A quick search on Google gave me this FAQ, which you might be interested in checking out: NASA Orbital Debris FAQ

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Why? We claim land on Planet Earth. We claim parts of the ocean, especially nearby our geographical boundaries. We even claim airspace. Why shouldn't we claim parts of outer space?

It's better to share than claim for your own. We've shared space so far.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Most people who read popular science magazines about space (I do!) know that space debris is a growing problem. It threatens satellites and manned space flights. A quick search on Google gave me this FAQ, which you might be interested in checking out: NASA Orbital Debris FAQ

Okay, thanks.

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Why should we claim parts of Planet Earths to begin with?

Without ownership, people couldn't tap the world's resources as they do. Living with technology's benefits, we don't know what it's like to live without them and so don't know what we're talking about, when we discuss refraining from exploiting the Earth.

I fully approve of measures to keep the environment protected, provided we can also continue to develop technology and make use of its resources. I'm willing to accept some cuts to that industrial development, for the protection of the environment, and some cuts to the environment for the sake of industrial development. It's a question of where to set the balance. I think the same should go for space.

Originally Posted by Jonathan

It's better to share than claim for your own. We've shared space so far.

Provided it remains practical and safe to do so, without nations taking advantage of one another or monopolizing outer space unfairly, I'm all for that. I suspect that at some point, regulation will be needed, though.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I've heard that that's true, but I've never seen information as to the extent of debris out there, or how much shattering mechanical objects up there would add to it. Do you happen to have any such information? If so, and the source doesn't look biased, I'd be very interested to see it.

My source are hard to quote on the internet, being mainly books on astronomy and space faring (Robin Kerrod is a frequent author), a National Geographic documentary on the testing and designing of space station coating material and previous NASA press communiqées.

But I see Jonathan has provided a good link.

Why? We claim land on Planet Earth. We claim parts of the ocean, especially nearby our geographical boundaries. We even claim airspace. Why shouldn't we claim parts of outer space?

We should not because Earth is too different from space to do in space as we did on Earth. We live and lived on earth, we need the seas, and we do share part of the seas, the international waters.

But we don't live in space, we don't own space. We don't need to go out there. Earth is an enclosed world, space is not. No matter where you are on earth, we are all just as far or as close to space. Unlike land, no one can lay claim on space any more than the next guy.

Claiming planets, and land on other planets is of course a different situation, but one that does not yet has come up. It'll be an interesting debate when we do get to it.

But take Antartica for example, it's shared. It's an unique situation, but one I would think ideal for space as well. "A natural reserve, devoted to peace and science", could easily fit space (except that space doesn't have much ecosystem of course). And didn't the plaque that the Apollo 11 left on the moon say: "Here Men From The Planet Earth First Set Foot Upon the Moon, July 1969 A.D. We Came in Peace For All Mankind." For all mankind, indeed, I think so it should remain. Sharing is possible. Sharing would be the best and most civil solution. But yes, space will need a regulation to protect it.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

But having our satellite technology made vulnerable is very worrisome to me.

Me too, though probably for different reasons. It might spur the US and China into a new arms race, as you've implied. The US is so used to being invulnerable that it might freak them out completely.

Perhaps there's one (deeply ironic) consolation: having a true balance of power in the world might be a restraining influence. This was my beef with SDI/missile shields: nuclear weapons can only be justified because of the principle of "mutually assured destruction". As soon as one side gets a system which prevents them being destroyed by enemy nukes, you have no justification for having them.

I would hope that this gets both sides to sit around the table and come up with some sort of treaty. And preferably soon, before Taiwan kicks off...

Antarctica would be a good model, but I can't see it happening. There is too much at stake, both commercially and politically.