Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

... What "high purpose of doom" did this union have?

Perhaps Eru would have woven one in...

[Attalus]

My take on it was very similar to Finrod's. Immortal folk have to be careful when they have relationships with mortals, and have to judge things to a nicety. Andreth is speaking out of a more selfish wish to have her beloved, though it might have worked to the detriment of all. It is not like having a dog or cat, who have a much shorter lifespan thna we do. There is grief at the parting but it would be much worse for an Elf, especially since they do not remarry, save in one celebrated instance. Aegnor's insticts would have been all against it, especially since Elves usually do not marry or have children in times of danger or strife, which this certainly was. I wonder what Aegnor thought of it when he reached the Halls of Mandos. Would he want to be reincarnated? Would he marry an Elf, then?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Attalus

My take on it was very similar to Finrod's. Immortal folk have to be careful when they have relationships with mortals, and have to judge things to a nicety. Andreth is speaking out of a more selfish wish to have her beloved, though it might have worked to the detriment of all. It is not like having a dog or cat, who have a much shorter lifespan thna we do. There is grief at the parting but it would be much worse for an Elf, especially since they do not remarry, save in one celebrated instance. Aegnor's insticts would have been all against it, especially since Elves usually do not marry or have children in times of danger or strife, which this certainly was. I wonder what Aegnor thought of it when he reached the Halls of Mandos. Would he want to be reincarnated? Would he marry an Elf, then?

Interesting take Doc, and one I agree with somewhat. Does not Finrod compare the brevity of flowers and such and points out that though they are loved and appreciated, it is understood that they die. It is a grief, but in accordance with their nature and accepted.

I don't know that Andreth is speaking in a selfesh way, but in a way that she feels is the way it should be from her "side of the sunderring doom." Little does she realize, although she would like to think, that Men had less control over their emotions and choices, as they were more easily tempted by what could have been and the loveliness of it that they hoped to come from it, rather than the reality of what end it could come to.

Aegnor would not have re-thought his position about returning from the halls of Mandos. Finrod makes that plain. He loved Andreth, and chose not to return because he wanted no other, and I get the impression, out of devotion to his love for her he would not in her honor, so to speak.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

He loved Andreth, and chose not to return because he wanted no other, and I get the impression, out of devotion to his love for her he would not in her honor, so to speak.

I get that impression, too.

Do you get that strong sense of "place" that I described, SGH? (and others)

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Attalus

... especially since they do not remarry, save in one celebrated instance.

And we all know what came from that!


(well, I guess Finrod came from "that", too, so it wasn't all bad!)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I get that impression, too.

Do you get that strong sense of "place" that I described, SGH? (and others)

Absolutely. My part is where it says: " he took her hand in the light of the fire." I can just see that happening. I can picture the room and everything. It's so profound. Ahhhh!

[Rían]

Yes, and I can hear the fire and see the shadows on the wall ... can you?


(what a writer!)


comments on the death thing for humans coming up ...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yes, and I can hear the fire and see the shadows on the wall ... can you?

That's what great artwork is made of. I would love some time to paint that scene. I see her sitting by the fire and him walking over to her. The room is dark except for the fire light. He stands tall and noble above her. He takes her hand and looks down at her so sweetly, as she asks him: "Whither go you"? <swoon>

[Attalus]

We need a "thud" smiley. Do you paint, SGH? I draw, and can well imagine the scene. The difficulty would be not making it too dark, which is just gloomy, and emphasizing the firelight and the shadows on faces, emphasizing the age of Andreth and the perpetual youthfulness yet sadness, of Finrod's. I would put them on opposite sides of the fire, yet not too far apart not to touch. The shading would be less difficult in that case.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Attalus

We need a "thud" smiley. Do you paint, SGH? I draw, and can well imagine the scene. The difficulty would be not making it too dark, which is just gloomy, and emphasizing the firelight and the shadows on faces, emphasizing the age of Andreth and the perpetual youthfulness yet sadness, of Finrod's. I would put them on opposite sides of the fire, yet not too far apart not to touch. The shading would be less difficult in that case.

Yep, I paint and draw a bit. One thing about the lighting in this scene, is there must have been some kind of light coming into the room from outside, because it says: "Darkness fell in the room." So in working with the shading and coloring, it would have to look dim but not dark. What do you think?

EDIT- Oh yeah, a "thud" smiley and a "drool" smiley too.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

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Andreth also says that Men were never meant for death, at least in their original state. Death was imposed upon them after their corruption by Morgoth. Does this mean that they were once immortal like the Elves? Finrod seems to think that this is something conjured up in the minds of Men in envy of the Elves.
:
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I'm at a distinct disadvantage in this discussion because I don't own the book and haven't read the story. I did read much of the other thread and most of this one though... and I also have a theory on this aspect of the story, which is perhaps little more than a guess, somewhat rooted (I think) in a Christian understanding of human wisdom.

Christianity views 'human wisdom' as flawed. I think it's entirely possible that the wise among the First Age humans might have held a belief like this - that they would have been as immortal as the Elves if they had not been corrupted by Morgoth - even if it was completely wrong.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Andreth actually refused to discuss this point with Finrod, considering him a stranger or outsider. I think Finrod tried to relate to her though, that in the end it would appear that humans were the immortal ones since they would go beyond and live again, where as the Elves died when the world died, so they were only immortal within Arda. In the story though, neither have a real answer, but speculation drives their conversation concerning mortality and I think it is the third theme of Music. Finrod believes, or wants to believe that at that time, they (Men and Elves) will be brought together on more even grounding so to speak. Men would be the Lordly ones and the Elves would be something like to what Men were in Arda, but they would all live and dwell together forever. Not sure if I explained it the way I wanted to. It's such a deep and complex story.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

... It's such a deep and complex story.

At some point, I WILL be getting and reading it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Valandil

At some point, I WILL be getting and reading it.

Well, you're in for a treat. Morgoth's Ring is a super read. The Athrabeth is only 23 pages long not counting the notes and comentaries by C.T.

[Attalus]

I think that is an important point, that so many Men and Women tend to envy the Elves, but they view themselves as more or less condemned to stay behind when Mankind will go on to something grand, exciting, and truly immortal. The good ones, anyway. In the seminal "On Fairy Stories," JRRT suggests that the "Human Stories" of the Fairies might be concerned with Escape from Deathlessness, and the Atrabeth is the culmination of that line of thought.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Yep, I paint and draw a bit. One thing about the lighting in this scene, is there must have been some kind of light coming into the room from outside, because it says: "Darkness fell in the room." So in working with the shading and coloring, it would have to look dim but not dark. What do you think?

I always pictured shifting, moving light, as if coming thru trees surrounding the room where they're talking. ANd I can hear the wind thru the trees, too.

*STOP it, JRRT, STOP it! You're messing with my mind!*

EDIT- Oh yeah, a "thud" smiley and a "drool" smiley too.

no kidding!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Valandil

At some point, I WILL be getting and reading it.

*puts on magic mind-convincing hat*

"You WILL buy it this weekend. You WILL buy it this weekend!"


It's really quite a read, Val, and as fellow Christians (along with Tolkien) there's lots of good stuff we can identify with in the appendicies, too. I really like the first Voice part ... (have I intrigued you yet?)

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

*puts on magic mind-convincing hat*

"You WILL buy it this weekend. You WILL buy it this weekend!"


It's really quite a read, Val, and as fellow Christians (along with Tolkien) there's lots of good stuff we can identify with in the appendicies, too. I really like the first Voice part ... (have I intrigued you yet?)

It has Appendices!?!? I LOVE Appendices!!!

*makes mental note to rush right out and buy it this weekend*

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Valandil

It has Appendices!?!? I LOVE Appendices!!!

*makes mental note to rush right out and buy it this weekend*

They're not quite as large as LoTR's appendices.

[Rían]

But they're fascinating ... IMHO