Theism - Page 11

FrodoFriend · 03-26-2002, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starr Polish
FF, can you give a definite purpose of life? If you can, I could see where you are coming from in that argument.

Umm . . . I guess you missed the sarcasm there. I should've put a bunch of Eds around my post, huh? I don't believe there is a definite purpose of life, I was merely showing that markedel's arguments are not proof. Why don't you ask him the purpose of life?

Starr Polish · 03-26-2002, 10:41 PM

Sorry 'bout that.

I don't really believe there is really a purpose of life, yet I believe in the existance of God. The purpose of life is to live it, and enjoy what God has given us.

Starr Polish · 03-26-2002, 10:52 PM

Sorry 'bout that.

I don't really believe there is really a purpose of life, yet I believe in the existance of God. The purpose of life is to live it, and enjoy what God has given us.

afro-elf · 03-26-2002, 11:10 PM

1:1-2:3 The first of two contradictory creation accounts. Compare with Gen.2:4-25 in which the order of events is entirely different.

The Genesis 1 account also conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In this account the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. From science, we know the true order of events was just the opposite.

1:3-5 God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19).
The JW book "Let God Be True" (1946) says that each of the seven days of creation was 7,000 years long. And that since Adam was "created toward the close of the sixth day, he was put on earth toward the end of 42,000 years of earth's preparation." (p. 155) And since "[a]ccording to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 B.C.E., likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation" (April 1, 1968, Watchtower), we know that the universe must have been created 48,028 years ago.

1:6-8 God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. This firmament, if it existed, would have been quite an obstacle to our space program.

1:11 In chapter 1 plants are created on the third day before humans are created on the sixth day. But in chapter 2 the order is reversed. (2:4-7)

Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19).

1:16 God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the
night." But if God made the moon to "rule the night", then why does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? "He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars.

1:17 "And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." Really? Then why are only a tiny fraction of stars visible from earth? Under the best conditions, no more than five thousand stars are visible from earth with the unaided eye, yet there are hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy and a hundred billion or so galaxies. Yet this verse says that God put the stars in the firmament "to give light" to the earth.

1:20-21, 2:19 From what were the fowls created?

1:25-26 In the first creation story, God makes humans (male and female) after the other animals; in the second, God makes a man first, then the other animals, and then a woman.

1:26 The use of the plural (us, our) implies that there is more than one god, contrary to many monotheistic biblical statements.

1:27 "According to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 B.C.E., likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation." (April 1, 1968, Watchtower) This was the basis of the failed 1975 prophecy: that Armageddon would occur in 1975, 6000 years after Adam's creation. The basis of the "reliable Bible chronology" was never explained, and the whole 6000 years thing was promptly dropped and forgotten after 1975 passed uneventfully.

1:29 God tells Adam that he may eat from "every tree," but in 2:17 he contradicts himself by saying there is one tree that he may not eat from.

Is it okay to eat meat?

1:30 All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. But, of course, we now know that there were carnivorous animals millions of years before humans existed.

1:31 In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but we know from modern science that the universe is at least 15 billion years old.

Starr Polish · 03-26-2002, 11:19 PM

Afro-Elf, with all due respect, I know you are older than me, but how can we be absolutely SURE that the world is millions of years old, and carnivores existed millions of years before humans unless you were there? I don't think you're THAT old

I'm aware that I wasn't there either, but I haven't really used many 'facts' in my arguments.

markedel · 03-26-2002, 11:20 PM

Sigh biblical literalists...

Starr Polish · 03-26-2002, 11:21 PM

Never said I was a 'literalist'...also known as fundamentalists, or d*mn fundies.

afro-elf · 03-26-2002, 11:50 PM

starr

mostly radio-dating

on the anti-thiest thread there are several responce to theist decries

but you may have to read through the thread

I would encourage that to get both sides

***Khamûl*** · 03-26-2002, 11:52 PM

Let me start off by saying that I am a Bible-believing Baptist. I would like to respectfully reply to some of afro-elf's comments.

Re: Genesis 1:20-21; 2:19 - God spoke and they were created. Simple.

1:26 - I believe that the use of the plural (us, we, our) is a sign of the Holy Trinity. Speaking are God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

1:27 - How does the JW book "Let God Be True" establish that each day of creation took 7,000 years? And who made the 1975 "prophecy"?

I believe in the Big Bang theory. God spoke and BANG! it happened.

BeardofPants · 03-26-2002, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FrodoFriend

Umm . . . I guess you missed the sarcasm there. I should've put a bunch of Eds around my post, huh? I don't believe there is a definite purpose of life, I was merely showing that markedel's arguments are not proof. Why don't you ask him the purpose of life?

Yes, that puzzles me. Most christians don't seem to buy into evolution (shoot me, if this is a gross overstatement), because there is no 'purpose' in it. Well, I am equally confused: why is there a purpose in Divine Creation, and going to heaven and hell? Why did a 'God' create life? What is his purpose? Is he so egocentric, that he/she needs to create life, to tell him how powerful, and right he is? To my point of view, there doesn't seem like much purpose in divine origins either. You just have an added bonus of 'living forever' in heaven or hell... Mmm...

This isn't an argument, merely an obliqueness, that I don't understand. Feel free to explain.

emplynx · 03-26-2002, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf

1:17 "And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth."

Even if they can't be seen with the unaided eye, but with the aided eye they cast light on earth.

Khadrane · 03-27-2002, 12:02 AM

Quote:

1:3-5 God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19).

Many theories about that. My opinion is that the light was maybe God's radience. But that is just a theory I like.

afro-elf · 03-27-2002, 12:04 AM

THIS IS GETTING VERY DISTARCTING

oops sorry about the caps

how about we all withdraw from the battle-field and get back to tolkien?

Starr Polish · 03-27-2002, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
starr

mostly radio-dating

on the anti-thiest thread there are several responce to theist decries

but you may have to read through the thread

I would encourage that to get both sides

What? I'm kind of lost here, on this response...I have been reading the anti-theist thread.

Cirdan · 03-27-2002, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants

Kudos to you! Exactly what I was trying to say. We have these facts that ARE available to us, and suggest, an older, everchanging world model. HOWEVER, that does not in any way discount religion, or a divine beginning. As of yet, there is no conclusive proof either way, that the initial 'creation' was either divine or not. Personally, for me, the available evidence leads me to believe that the probability of a divine creation is none. But, I have been known to be wrong, and given the very real lack of information available to us (as scientists, academics and hobby-ists), it would be silly to completely discount the notion, because the current information does not point to it. So, in conclusion of my ramblings, I stand by what I have said - I don't believe in a divine origin - in lieu of new information. Again, kudos for picking up on what I was trying to say. Sometimes, even *I* don't get what I'm trying to say!!

Sounded very coherent, BOP!

afro-elf · 03-27-2002, 12:15 AM

Starr what i mean was that some have doubts about radio-dating

and that responces have been given for them

I was just trying to save time IF you said you had doubts about it

Andúril · 03-28-2002, 03:15 AM

To all theists here, I would like to request a list of the defining attributes of the god(s) you worship/believe in.

I have already given a few of the Christian God, such as omnipotence or omniscience. Is anyone here willing to fulfill this request?

Nariel Starfire · 03-28-2002, 06:17 PM

Okay, I just want everyone to know that I post this while I am at school. My books are at home an di can't really access Entmoot at home because my computer is too slow. So when I post I don't have my books with me. I just dig up whatever I can remember from reading them.

Also, if I recall correctly, BeardofPants, you keep talking about how the facts prove an older earth and, while I have been trying to prove otherwise, you simply refute what I have said. Could you please give me the facts (not a link, give me what you are thinking of when you say facts). This will help me considerably.

Also, my comment concerning why evolutionists use carbon dating was meant as a joke.

I also do not refute the idea of Microevolution.

Anyway, that said, to Anduril, I wish to say this:

My God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. He is good and kind. He is forgiving, but just. His wrath is not to be toyed with, but His mercy is unsurpassable. His grace surpasses all understanding, and His love endures all. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. He is eternal, the Creator of all things, and the King of all. He will never leave me, but will chastise me when needed. He is a kind Father, a forgiving King, and a friend and guide to me. He gives life and takes it away. He is forever.

Cirdan · 03-28-2002, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emplynx

Even if they can't be seen with the unaided eye, but with the aided eye they cast light on earth.

But they are millions of light-years away. It would take a good deal of time for the ligh to get here.

Starr Polish · 03-28-2002, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan

But they are millions of light-years away. It would take a good deal of time for the ligh to get here.

This doesn't disprove creationism...it just makes believing in the young earth theory that much harder. Some Christians believe in the old earth theory.

03-26-2002, 10:41 PM	#202
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Sorry 'bout that. I don't really believe there is really a purpose of life, yet I believe in the existance of God. The purpose of life is to live it, and enjoy what God has given us. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

03-26-2002, 10:52 PM	#203
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Sorry 'bout that. I don't really believe there is really a purpose of life, yet I believe in the existance of God. The purpose of life is to live it, and enjoy what God has given us. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

03-26-2002, 11:10 PM	#204
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	ch by ch 1:1-2:3 The first of two contradictory creation accounts. Compare with Gen.2:4-25 in which the order of events is entirely different. The Genesis 1 account also conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In this account the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. From science, we know the true order of events was just the opposite. 1:3-5 God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). The JW book "Let God Be True" (1946) says that each of the seven days of creation was 7,000 years long. And that since Adam was "created toward the close of the sixth day, he was put on earth toward the end of 42,000 years of earth's preparation." (p. 155) And since "[a]ccording to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 B.C.E., likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation" (April 1, 1968, Watchtower), we know that the universe must have been created 48,028 years ago. 1:6-8 God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. This firmament, if it existed, would have been quite an obstacle to our space program. 1:11 In chapter 1 plants are created on the third day before humans are created on the sixth day. But in chapter 2 the order is reversed. (2:4-7) Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:16 God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But if God made the moon to "rule the night", then why does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? "He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:17 "And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." Really? Then why are only a tiny fraction of stars visible from earth? Under the best conditions, no more than five thousand stars are visible from earth with the unaided eye, yet there are hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy and a hundred billion or so galaxies. Yet this verse says that God put the stars in the firmament "to give light" to the earth. 1:20-21, 2:19 From what were the fowls created? 1:25-26 In the first creation story, God makes humans (male and female) after the other animals; in the second, God makes a man first, then the other animals, and then a woman. 1:26 The use of the plural (us, our) implies that there is more than one god, contrary to many monotheistic biblical statements. 1:27 "According to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 B.C.E., likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation." (April 1, 1968, Watchtower) This was the basis of the failed 1975 prophecy: that Armageddon would occur in 1975, 6000 years after Adam's creation. The basis of the "reliable Bible chronology" was never explained, and the whole 6000 years thing was promptly dropped and forgotten after 1975 passed uneventfully. 1:29 God tells Adam that he may eat from "every tree," but in 2:17 he contradicts himself by saying there is one tree that he may not eat from. Is it okay to eat meat? 1:30 All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. But, of course, we now know that there were carnivorous animals millions of years before humans existed. 1:31 In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but we know from modern science that the universe is at least 15 billion years old. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-26-2002, 11:19 PM	#205
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Afro-Elf, with all due respect, I know you are older than me, but how can we be absolutely SURE that the world is millions of years old, and carnivores existed millions of years before humans unless you were there? I don't think you're THAT old I'm aware that I wasn't there either, but I haven't really used many 'facts' in my arguments. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

03-26-2002, 11:20 PM	#206
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Sigh biblical literalists... __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-26-2002, 11:21 PM	#207
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Never said I was a 'literalist'...also known as fundamentalists, or d*mn fundies. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

03-26-2002, 11:50 PM	#208
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	starr mostly radio-dating on the anti-thiest thread there are several responce to theist decries but you may have to read through the thread I would encourage that to get both sides __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-26-2002, 11:52 PM	#209
*Khamûl* Slacker Warrior Admin Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,759	Let me start off by saying that I am a Bible-believing Baptist. I would like to respectfully reply to some of afro-elf's comments. Re: Genesis 1:20-21; 2:19 - God spoke and they were created. Simple. 1:26 - I believe that the use of the plural (us, we, our) is a sign of the Holy Trinity. Speaking are God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. 1:27 - How does the JW book "Let God Be True" establish that each day of creation took 7,000 years? And who made the 1975 "prophecy"? I believe in the Big Bang theory. God spoke and BANG! it happened. __________________ "If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you." Gandalf to Pippin Psalm 107:31

03-27-2002, 12:04 AM	#213
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	THIS IS GETTING VERY DISTARCTING oops sorry about the caps how about we all withdraw from the battle-field and get back to tolkien? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-27-2002, 12:15 AM	#216
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Starr what i mean was that some have doubts about radio-dating and that responces have been given for them I was just trying to save time IF you said you had doubts about it __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-28-2002, 03:15 AM	#217
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	To all theists here, I would like to request a list of the defining attributes of the god(s) you worship/believe in. I have already given a few of the Christian God, such as omnipotence or omniscience. Is anyone here willing to fulfill this request?

03-28-2002, 06:17 PM	#218
Nariel Starfire Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: La La Land Posts: 309	Okay, I just want everyone to know that I post this while I am at school. My books are at home an di can't really access Entmoot at home because my computer is too slow. So when I post I don't have my books with me. I just dig up whatever I can remember from reading them. Also, if I recall correctly, BeardofPants, you keep talking about how the facts prove an older earth and, while I have been trying to prove otherwise, you simply refute what I have said. Could you please give me the facts (not a link, give me what you are thinking of when you say facts). This will help me considerably. Also, my comment concerning why evolutionists use carbon dating was meant as a joke. I also do not refute the idea of Microevolution. Anyway, that said, to Anduril, I wish to say this: My God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. He is good and kind. He is forgiving, but just. His wrath is not to be toyed with, but His mercy is unsurpassable. His grace surpasses all understanding, and His love endures all. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. He is eternal, the Creator of all things, and the King of all. He will never leave me, but will chastise me when needed. He is a kind Father, a forgiving King, and a friend and guide to me. He gives life and takes it away. He is forever. __________________ It is the failed skydiver who leaves an impression upon the earth. "But what about the R.O.U.Ses?" Yours Truly, The Tisroc -You forgot to say "May he live forever" -That's because I don't want him to live forever! - The Horse and his Boy--C.S. Lewis

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