01-23-2007, 01:07 PM | #201 |
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Therefore I don't know why you brought up The Pea and the Planet influence thing.
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01-23-2007, 05:26 PM | #202 | |
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There a certain behavioral traits a vast majority of the male population share, but not all males share them to the same degree. There are also certain traits that the female population shares, but not all females share them. If you looked at a population of males, 10-20% might appear far towards what we define as "female behavior", just as another 10-20% might be defined as "excessively male" in behavior. The same is true of females. Some of this is upbringing, and some of this may be biological (i.e. hormonal balance). If you paint a with a broad brush as you do, there are males, and there are females. But, if you look at reality, the behaviors overlap so far that in some cases you will have females who are behaviorially "more male" than some males are. You don't need a study for this, you can observe it in everyday life. This is why, eventhough a vast majority of cultures were dominated by males in the past, there were a few that were not. Do some study into the Queens of England if you don't believe that women can be dominant. What you are basically saying is: "The majority of people are this way. Thus, all people are this way." Also, I'm not saying that "men and women are the same". I am saying that there are enough differences in behavior within each gender as to render your "gender matters in terms of a relationship" as moot.
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01-23-2007, 05:55 PM | #203 | |
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That comes down to you and I having different interpretations of our personal experiences with people.
I strongly disagree with your 10-20% femininity among males or masculinity among females, though. I've only seen this kind of variation in perhaps 5% of those I've met from each gender, if that. England has had many more male rulers than female rulers, because the bloodline went from male to male until there weren't any left, and then out of necessity the succession went to women. Quote:
You don't refrain from laws preventing stealing because there are a few random thieves who do good by stealing. And the vast majority of the laws we have for the protection of our country are made with the knowledge that some people will be improperly treated under them. They are improper for that small minority of cases. For instance, we have a court system even though we know that sometimes, justice will not be kept in it. We have a medical profession even though we know our doctors will occasionally make mistakes that kill their patients, or result in their patients' deaths. We can have laws about gender that govern the vast majority of cases, even if they don't hold up for every example. Sometimes, that kind of law is necessary for the good of the country. The evidence concerning masculine dominance in cultures throughout history certainly implies, in my opinion, a larger difference than a 10-20% off-shoot variation within each gender. My own experience implies the same to me. I'll wager it wouldn't to you, and that I would interpret your experiences differently if they were mine. So we have our own different interpretations of the evidence I have presented and our personal experiences. As we're now just getting down to personal interpretation of our experiences and the data, and those interpretations differ, I suspect that in the absence of additional evidence, we're left without anywhere further to go in this line of conversation.
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01-23-2007, 07:22 PM | #204 | |||
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Approach it with an open mind. That it is a positive relationship until proven otherwise, as opposed to the other way around. In my mind, even just one healthy, loving homosexual couple is enough evidence to give them the priviledge, since we have absolutely no behavioral requirements for heterosexual couples to get married.
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01-23-2007, 09:13 PM | #205 | ||
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That's what we do with homosexual marriage. Give that relationship marriage laws and you declare it to be healthy. You also make marriage definition strictly arbitrary, and it could change to almost anything else in the future and becomes meaningless. You also implement laws which, while they might benefit a handful of homosexual relationships, might be very damaging to the vast majority of them because they aren't designed with that different kind of relationship's biological needs taken into account. That also may harm heterosexuals, who could become entangled in legal problems because of two relationships blindly being made equivalent under law, without any evidence having been produced showing that they are equivalent. Doing this makes no sense, in my view.
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01-24-2007, 10:09 AM | #206 | ||||
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It's perfectly legal for a man to marry a woman, and then for both of them to go off and live the rest of their lives with someone else. The problem is that you are imposing the religious meaning behind marriage on the legal process of marriage. Something that does not, and has never, existed in practice. Quote:
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01-24-2007, 01:27 PM | #207 | ||||
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If marriage is not defined as between a man and a woman, though, and homosexuals can marry, you'll also get polygamy legalized and probably other kinds of relationships too. Laws that apply properly to one kind of relationship might not, to another, and may end up having to be discarded. Legal messes will result, when people with different kinds of relationships are butting heads with an inappropriate law. Marriage laws probably would need to be changed. Heterosexuals would be affected. Eventually, marriage laws would probably have to be discarded altogether. Quote:
But regardless of whether this example is on-track or off, and I know you'll think it's off, the point remains. They are clearly, based on the strong evidence that men and women are substantially different genders, different kinds of relationships. So before we can apply the same laws that apply to heterosexuals to them, we need to find out what kind of a relationship it is we're saying is "fine" by giving it marriage status.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-24-2007, 02:31 PM | #208 | ||
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01-24-2007, 04:26 PM | #209 | |
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Blacks are biologically different than whites. Just as asians are biologically different than europeans, and women are biologically different than men. The question is whether these differences are great enough to allow discrimination between what we do and do not allow in any given set of adults. In my mind, universal human intelligence, reasoning and compassion trumps any comparatively minor biological differences, whether between race or gender. Homosexual relationships can be healthy, you are just unable to admit the possibility and are thus unable to see it.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. Last edited by brownjenkins : 01-24-2007 at 04:27 PM. |
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01-24-2007, 04:31 PM | #210 | ||
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I think that there's a lot of damage that's obviously done by divorce.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-24-2007, 04:43 PM | #211 | |||
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The studies that regard gender have been taken across mutliple countries, cultures, and religious differences. The fact that in spite of all that variation in the testing, they continue to show greater aggression among men and more nurturing among women indicates that these are the result of biology rather than just socialization. The fact that men dominate civilizations across the world and always have is also an evidence of this, for if men and women were even roughly the same in brains, you'd see women dominating many civilizations. Quote:
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I'm also arguing that arbitrarily offering the same laws we give to heterosexual marriages to homosexual relationships without knowing that they fit that kind of relationship at all is irresponsible. Your arguments are based on assumption.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-24-2007, 11:41 PM | #212 | ||
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Fast forward to today, when success is much more about what is in your head, and technology has allowed homemakers a lot more free time in their lives, and you are slowly seeing equity among the genders in all roles in society. We are still in the first few generations of this. But in another 100 years or so male/female roles may be completely interchangeable in society. There will be husbands staying at home just as often as wives, and females just as likely to hold positions of power. This is because, mentally, they are more or less the same. There is no role in society, short of actually carrying a baby, that is exclusive to any one gender when physical strength no longer is a deciding factor in the equation. Quote:
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01-24-2007, 11:58 PM | #213 | |
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Also, many people who get divorced either get remarried in a better relationship or can become very good single parents. My wife got married at 20 to her highschool sweetheart when she got pregnant. He is Catholic, and he thought it was the right thing to do. After a year, it was over. Not because they were bad people. They just didn't work for one another anymore. Now she's remarried (obviously ), and so is he. And our oldest has two happy, solid families to share his time with. And a lot of brothers and sisters. The key, in my mind, is that they both realized early on that it simply wasn't working and had no problem ending the relationship amicably. They did it for themselves, but they also did it for their child because they realized that their own happiness would effect how well they could raise that child. And he's one of the most well-adjusted, mature 11-year-olds I know these days. Almost too much so. He's also a straight-A student. So don't get too worried about divorce rates. Many times it is a good thing in the long run.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. Last edited by brownjenkins : 01-24-2007 at 11:59 PM. |
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01-25-2007, 10:50 AM | #214 | ||
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As a side note, here's where the debate's at in the UK:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6297107.stm Quote:
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01-25-2007, 12:15 PM | #215 | |
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01-25-2007, 02:25 PM | #216 | |||
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And contrary to what you say, I strongly feel that there is usually a lot of hurt when a parent loses custody of his or her child to the other parent, and a lot of hurt for the children as well. Also the splitting of relationships frequently will hurt one or both of the people breaking up. I heard that from a pastor of my church who was divorced, and confessed how terribly deep the wound still went for him. I know one young woman who was in her twenties, had a job and was pretty successful, and she was helping me and a few other people to lead a church youth group. She confided in me at one point, at the verge of tears, that she was still hurting deeply because her parents had divorced when she was a child. It can be very difficult for single parents too, to manage a job and taking care of their children, as I've witnessed firsthand from another woman who got divorced. She is constantly trying to get my family to look after her children, because she is trying to make ends meet. She's doing a pretty good job with her children, but it is very hard. I know her daughter pretty well now (because she and her brother are here so often, naturally), and she is determined never to have a divorce ever, because of what it has done to her family life. She greatly cherishes how beautiful a family structure is, because of seeing ours and not having that in her own life.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-25-2007, 04:04 PM | #217 | ||
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Look at America TODAY!! Male dominance is rapidly declining and there's every reason to believe that after a few more generations there will be parity more or less between the genders as far as "dominance" goes, no matter how you choose to measure it. Quote:
Bad parents come in all shapes and sizes as well. I also know some couples who are wonderful with one another, but are kind of lousy when it comes to parenting. My point is that "marriage", or the lack of, has nothing to do with it. It's about the people involved and how much they chose to care about their kids, whether or not they still care about one another in the same way. How old are you Lief?
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01-25-2007, 04:37 PM | #218 | ||||
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Unless you're in your nineties, maybe we should leave age out of this .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-25-2007 at 04:43 PM. |
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01-25-2007, 10:10 PM | #219 |
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I'll be 40 in a few weeks.
Keep an open mind is all I can say. There are many ways to lead a happy life in this world.
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01-27-2007, 04:26 AM | #220 | |||
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