Science

[Insidious Rex]

You mean they dont teach this way of thinking about gravity in schools anymore?

[Blackheart]

I couldn't help noticing that somone was talking about measuring a singularity...

Degenerate matter can be measured... such as neutronium... yes... Assuming you can calculate for the relatavistic changes in the "measuring sticks" you can get a dimension.

That's because neutronium or "white dwarfs" are matter. It's degenerate matter but it does have dimension despite the warping of space. It consists of Neutrons packed edge to edge. No empty space, no orbital shells, no protons. Just solid packed Neutrons.

A singularity however, has reached a sufficient mass to overcome the last of the strong electromagnetic forces with gravity. The neutrons are no longer packed shoulder to shoulder. They begin to occupy the same "space" and also (according to theory) experience a shift in their energy states.

It should be noted however that normally mass doesn't overlap, and the fact that gravity has overpowered the stong electromagnetic forces means basically that matter itself has collapsed. The matter has "ceased to exist" as regards any measurable test in this universe.

But the energy from that matter has NOT ceased to exist. It continues to occupy an overlapped state in the "singularity". This is where (supposedly) all the gravity comes from. The mass has been converted to energy, but due to the odd nature of a singularity, space continues to act as if the energy were still a mass exerting a gravity field.

If you were somehow able to measure the actual singularity (and It's hard to imagine how this could be accomplished) you would find that it's measurements were infinitesimal. It would be smaller than the smallest sub atomic particles.

There is however an event horizon, or probably several event horizons. And the dimensions of these could be measured... The photonic event horizon is just the boundry of the singularities effect on information... it's very difficult to get information when it must travel faster than the speed of light to escape.

"Part of Kerr's solution shows that the region bounded by the ring singularity is a region of the most extreme peculiarity. This is a region of negative space-time! While the meaning of this is still being debated, the consensus among many scientists seems to be that this is an area in which gravity is switched into a repulsive, rather than an attractive force. ... Another theory claims that this is a region, within which, objects have a negative radius. Unfortunately, no one can find any physical meaning in such a concept"


"One of the most unusual characteristics of a Kerr black hole is the possibility that it could evolve into a naked singularity. Due to the law of conservation of angular momentum, a rotating black hole should rotate ever faster as its radius decreased. Once the object's angular momentum increased beyond it's mass, the event horizon of the hole would be moving in excess of the speed of light. At this point, the event horizon would simply vanish from the universe, exposing the singularity. The absence of the event horizon means that we could travel freely into and out of the singularity. While no one has yet to prove that naked singularities cannot exist, most physicists are strongly inclined to believe that such is the case. Safely within the event horizon, a singularity is effectively shut out of the universe. When it is naked, this region of utter disregard for the known laws of nature is free to interact with the rest of the universe. To illustrate just how disruptive such an object might be, the simple act of going into orbit around a naked singularity would enable one to travel to any point in the past .."

[Blackheart]

"Due to the law of conservation of angular momentum, a rotating black hole should rotate ever faster as its radius decreased. Once the object's angular momentum increased beyond it's mass, the event horizon of the hole would be moving in excess of the speed of light. At this point, the event horizon would simply vanish from the universe, exposing the singularity."

Oh yes.. I should have made note that the effects of an occurrence like this would be noticeable all across the universe... The acceleration of that much matter to C++ might be comparable to a "big bang", and could have similar results, not to mention leave similar traces...

[trolls' bane]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

You mean they dont teach this way of thinking about gravity in schools anymore?

Not to highschool freshmen!

Originally Posted by Blackheart

There is however an event horizon, or probably several event horizons. And the dimensions of these could be measured... The photonic event horizon is just the boundry of the singularities effect on information... it's very difficult to get information when it must travel faster than the speed of light to escape.

...Which is absolutely impossible (despite what I want to beleive), because the speed of light is Nature's speedlimit: to travel one per cent faster would require you to burn up all of the stars in the universe.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

"One of the most unusual characteristics of a Kerr black hole is the possibility that it could evolve into a naked singularity. Due to the law of conservation of angular momentum, a rotating black hole should rotate ever faster as its radius decreased. Once the object's angular momentum increased beyond it's mass, the event horizon of the hole would be moving in excess of the speed of light. At this point, the event horizon would simply vanish from the universe, exposing the singularity. The absence of the event horizon means that we could travel freely into and out of the singularity. While no one has yet to prove that naked singularities cannot exist, most physicists are strongly inclined to believe that such is the case. Safely within the event horizon, a singularity is effectively shut out of the universe. When it is naked, this region of utter disregard for the known laws of nature is free to interact with the rest of the universe. To illustrate just how disruptive such an object might be, the simple act of going into orbit around a naked singularity would enable one to travel to any point in the past .."

I think that they CAN exist, but will not, as predicted by general relativity. Because the time dilation is so enormous, and what I mentioned earlier about the distant observer and the victim having two different perceptions of time (the former sees the latter at a near standstill, the latter sees the former die, followed by his distant descendants nearly instantaneously--assuming that they could see each other, which is physically impossible, but it helps to explain it), the universe would essentially collapse while the "singularity" is still in existence, and so the singularity would undergo a change from a spacelike singularity to a timelike singularity.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by trolls' bane

...Which is absolutely impossible (despite what I want to beleive), because the speed of light is Nature's speedlimit: to travel one per cent faster would require you to burn up all of the stars in the universe.

Err, note I said information. It's not impossible for information to travel faster than the speed of light. It's difficult and complex, but there are several methods that are very workable. Physical objects, EMR, that's another story. The easiest method of getting information traveling at C+ is probably quantum entanglement. Using a sensor that beams entangled photons at the edge of a black hole would allow you to read the states of the photons within the black hole from outside the even horizon.

-assuming that they could see each other, which is physically impossible, but it helps to explain it), the universe would essentially collapse while the "singularity" is still in existence, and so the singularity would undergo a change from a spacelike singularity to a timelike singularity.

Err in this case, it's an example of the opposite side of the phenomenon. EMR and physical matter must actually "leave" the frame in order to travel to a different point in the frame. It's like picking up a chess peice and putting it down somewhere. But the propigation of information doesn't travel any faster just because there is a "hole" in reality. The Universe won't be collapsing like a punctured balloon...

[trolls' bane]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Err, note I said information. It's not impossible for information to travel faster than the speed of light. It's difficult and complex, but there are several methods that are very workable. Physical objects, EMR, that's another story. The easiest method of getting information traveling at C+ is probably quantum entanglement. Using a sensor that beams entangled photons at the edge of a black hole would allow you to read the states of the photons within the black hole from outside the even horizon.

Quantum entanglement? I'll have to look that one up.
One thing I have major trouble understanding, is that if the gravity is so high, how does gravity itself escape the event horizon, because gravity can only travel at the speed of light. Trippy.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Err in this case, it's an example of the opposite side of the phenomenon. EMR and physical matter must actually "leave" the frame in order to travel to a different point in the frame. It's like picking up a chess peice and putting it down somewhere. But the propigation of information doesn't travel any faster just because there is a "hole" in reality. The Universe won't be collapsing like a punctured balloon...

Huh? I didn't mean that it LEAVES the universe, but from the perspective of a distant observer, it takes an "infinite" amount of time for the event horizon to "wear away", making it appear to those within that it is collapsing--gah! Forget it. I was just thinking and I just confused myself, so I don't even know what my opinion is!
Bringing me to infinity (off earlier topic slightly), which, in my opinion, infinity cannot physically exist, because the googolplex is finite yet would still require all the matter in the universe and then some to write down at even font size one, which is less than a millimeter. But delving into infinity is like delving into the concept of nothingness, which I looked up on Wikipedia and it said what Sten Odenwald said with slightly different (but equally amusing!) words.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by trolls' bane

Quantum entanglement? I'll have to look that one up.
One thing I have major trouble understanding, is that if the gravity is so high, how does gravity itself escape the event horizon, because gravity can only travel at the speed of light. Trippy.

Gravity "propigates" at the speed of light, but that doesn't mean that it actually travels. Most theories suggest it acts on the actual fabric of reality itself, possibly even being an interdimensional force.

Huh? I didn't mean that it LEAVES the universe, but from the perspective of a distant observer, it takes an "infinite" amount of time for the event horizon to "wear away", making it appear to those within that it is collapsing--gah! Forget it. I was just thinking and I just confused myself, so I don't even know what my opinion is!

Oh.. observer effects. If you consider that time is actually a part of the universe, and then consider the act of actually LEAVING the universe... it might make more sense...

Bringing me to infinity (off earlier topic slightly), which, in my opinion, infinity cannot physically exist, because the googolplex is finite yet would still require all the matter in the universe and then some to write down at even font size one, which is less than a millimeter. But delving into infinity is like delving into the concept of nothingness, which I looked up on Wikipedia and it said what Sten Odenwald said with slightly different (but equally amusing!) words.

If you postulate that the only form of physical existence possible is within this universe is matter, then yes...

But then... you might be looking in the wrong direction for infinity. Take an apple.. and slice it in half... Now slice the half in half...

when you get to the last atom, start on it.

When you get to the last sub atomic particle, start on it.

When you get to the last string, quantum packet etc.. start on it.



Mathematics physically exist within our universe, otherwise they wouldn't be able to model it very effectivly. Infinity is a mathematical construct, and as such it can be found lurking in the universe...

How fine can you slice a nanosecond?

Zero is usually considered the opposite of infinity. But it's not. It's just the other side of the coin. It's like a mathmatical singularity... how much is an infinite number of zeros? Zero? If it's zero that means that a potential infinity lurks in every empty spot within the universe...

How many infinities can you stack on the head of a pin?

Practically, yes, the macro-universe has limits. But scale in the other direction, and you actually begin to rapidly approach infinity.. consider how many quantum virtual particles there are in the universe... I don't think anyone has ever done a calculation on that... That would be .. mind boggling..

[trolls' bane]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

If you postulate that the only form of physical existence possible is within this universe is matter, then yes...
But then... you might be looking in the wrong direction for infinity. Take an apple.. and slice it in half... Now slice the half in half...
when you get to the last atom, start on it.
When you get to the last sub atomic particle, start on it.
When you get to the last string, quantum packet etc.. start on it.
Mathematics physically exist within our universe, otherwise they wouldn't be able to model it very effectivly. Infinity is a mathematical construct, and as such it can be found lurking in the universe...
How fine can you slice a nanosecond?
Zero is usually considered the opposite of infinity. But it's not. It's just the other side of the coin. It's like a mathmatical singularity... how much is an infinite number of zeros? Zero? If it's zero that means that a potential infinity lurks in every empty spot within the universe...
How many infinities can you stack on the head of a pin?
Practically, yes, the macro-universe has limits. But scale in the other direction, and you actually begin to rapidly approach infinity.. consider how many quantum virtual particles there are in the universe... I don't think anyone has ever done a calculation on that... That would be .. mind boggling..

It really depends on how you look at infinity...Tecnically, there are many different types of infinities, some could seem finite (like your metaphorical slicing of an apple, for instance, can go on forever, yet at the same time cannot!--how the mind works!), while others are infinite. To me, infinity is the most infinite infinity as infinity can get, infinity (!). This infinity cannot fit inside the universe, because the universe is finite, even if it is infinite (well, you know what I mean! And I don't beleive in an infinite universe anyway.). In my infinity you could add up all of everything in the universe regardless of type, including space itself as the universal gravitational field, and you would still have a finite number to deal with. I agree that zero is not the opposite of infinity. Zero is a finite number, just like all other intergers. Delving into the realm of infinity is like delving into nothingness, or perhaps the opposite of nothingness. In fact, that's it! Nothingness is the opposite of infinity, if you can indeed consider nothingness anything, because that would require nothingness to be something, which it is not. Therefore, the only endouniversal opposite of infinity is negative infinity, which is also the same thing!
I'm probably wrong, or at least diving too deep into pseudo-science, and equations that balance out and yet unbalance at the same time. I'm curious what you think of as infinity? Anyone, for that matter?

[Blackheart]

The only necessary prerequisite for infinity is room to add just a little bit more.

Jello is infinite.. there's always room for jello.

Since the universe is expanding, it is quite likely that it is getting bigger... Is there something outside for it to expand within? That would mean that there is the possibility of an infinite realm just the other side of timespace.

If it's expanding.. and there's NOTHING on the outside... then what's to stop it from expanding ad infinitum? Collapse has been, for the moment, ruled out, and it's the best guess the universe will just expand forever.

BTW forever is also another form of infinity...

[trolls' bane]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

The only necessary prerequisite for infinity is room to add just a little bit more.

Jello is infinite.. there's always room for jello.

Since the universe is expanding, it is quite likely that it is getting bigger... Is there something outside for it to expand within? That would mean that there is the possibility of an infinite realm just the other side of timespace.

If it's expanding.. and there's NOTHING on the outside... then what's to stop it from expanding ad infinitum? Collapse has been, for the moment, ruled out, and it's the best guess the universe will just expand forever.

BTW forever is also another form of infinity...

Well, that's sorta what I mean...That the "outer realm," or perhaps, void would be a better term, is infinite, and the most pure infinity you can get--an infinity that is a synonym of Nothingness. I like this view, because the void is also emptiness which means it can hold something if something were there to fill it, like you said with the universe. I beleive that the universe is not infinite, however. I'm more of a Big Crunch kinda guy.
We have two opposing opinions. I kninda hope I'm wrong, if I were to accidentally live long enough to see these things! *shudder*

[Blackheart]

At the current rate of inflation, the universe will likely never see a big crunch, unless something extremely drastic changes in the fundamental constants.

Also big bang theory is on the wane... the new favorite is "brane collisions"...

A 5th dimensional entity intruding into a 4th dimensional space, the most likely source would be another time-space realm drawing into congruence and "squishing" the "void" into BOTH universes, causing a massive release of energy and matter.

If it's true.. it means that somewhere out there, our universe has a fraternal twin.

But just because this 4th dimensional space is a "closed" space, doesn't mean that it actually IS the universe. The universe would include multiple 4d realms, possibly an infinite number of them. An infinity of infinities...

[trolls' bane]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

At the current rate of inflation, the universe will likely never see a big crunch, unless something extremely drastic changes in the fundamental constants.

Also big bang theory is on the wane... the new favorite is "brane collisions"...

A 5th dimensional entity intruding into a 4th dimensional space, the most likely source would be another time-space realm drawing into congruence and "squishing" the "void" into BOTH universes, causing a massive release of energy and matter.

If it's true.. it means that somewhere out there, our universe has a fraternal twin.

But just because this 4th dimensional space is a "closed" space, doesn't mean that it actually IS the universe. The universe would include multiple 4d realms, possibly an infinite number of them. An infinity of infinities...

I will read up on it.

[Blackheart]

Hrmm.. I need to resubscribe.. I cleaned out my folders..

[trolls' bane]

Okay, there are definitely posts missing. What happened here?

[Gandalfthegray]

Hello all. Well in college i majored in chemistry and physics and i minored in mineralogy and geology. I work as a scientific researcher for the government.

[trolls' bane]

Originally Posted by Gandalfthegray

Hello all. Well in college i majored in chemistry and physics and i minored in mineralogy and geology. I work as a scientific researcher for the government.

...For the government? I think I'll pass on that. I would much rather work for...eh...who would there be to work for that I can trust?

[trolls' bane]

Help us search for star dust! Take an online course, and then search for the dust!
http://stardustathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/

[Blackheart]

Isn't it more like interstellar dust?

One would assume that samples that far away from a star would have been affected by the environment at least to some degree....

[Nurvingiel]

*hijacks thread*

I just learned something cool about colour. When you look at traditional art like a painting, you are looking at reflected light. The primary colours are red, blue, and yellow.

When you look at a computer screen, the colours you see are projected light. All colours are made up of red, blue, and green. Pretty rad huh? That's why when you scan a colour image, the colours are slightly different.

And yet, when you have your digital photos printed, they look the same. The photo lab must have some genius software.

*hands thread back*

[BeardofPants]

*smiles and nods
Yep, I learned all sorts of cool shite like that when I did my remote sensing class... what's not to like? Radar, satellites, aerial photography.