Theological Opinions

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Well, you couldn't cover every version, but it's certainly possible to cover a few of the better known ones! I could give many suggestions but I won't - I'll let people here speak for themselves.

Have you reached this conclusion based on study of the Bible and what it says about the subject? If not, what have you based it on?

Mostly women's place in society right up until recent times (history) in almost every culture and that this seems to stem from the fact that men always have had the power to suppress them. This is not just a feauture found in Christianity.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Falagar

Mostly women's place in society right up until recent times (history) in almost every culture and that this seems to stem from the fact that men always have had the power to suppress them. This is not just a feauture found in Christianity.

No - all you have to do is look at islam - especially in Saudi Arabia and other countries around the Middle East. Women can't even drive or have a job.

In the pentecostal religion it's bad too. Skirts, no make-up, long hair and the husband is the boss. (although Jonathan says that pentecostals aren't as fanatical in Sweden as they are in Indiana)

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Falagar

I'm curious - How would you argue for submission without using God?

Here's my answer - what's YOUR basis for arguing against submission? (which I assume you do) Do you argue based on your opinion what is right? Well, if so, you're doing the same thing I'm doing.

I think there's a lot of unfair prejudice and stereotyping against people with so-called "religious" beliefs. From what I've heard, many atheists and agnostics have this odd belief that their beliefs are somehow neutral, while "religious" people's beliefs aren't. They tell "religious" people to NOT bring their beliefs into a discussion, yet they themselves freely bring their beliefs into discussions. Go figure!

I freely admit, over and over, that my belief that Christianity (as explained in the Bible) is a statement of the true state of the universe may very well be wrong. After a lot of thought and research, I really think I AM right, but I certainly wouldn't claim to KNOW I'm right. (I might occasionally say "I know I'm right!" in a heart sense, like "I know in my heart", but I certainly wouldn't claim to know I'm intellectually right beyond all doubt.)

So usually step 1 for me in moral discussions is to show that atheistic and agnostic beliefs are exactly the same as "religious" beliefs, in the sense that NONE OF THEM can be proved "right". NONE of them. And that's why I like to group them ALL together using the term "worldview".

From there, the usual objections from agnostics and/or atheists are either that no one can prove that God exists, and you might as well claim something like a giant turtle is really God, or that that MY beliefs are based on someone that may not exist, and theirs AREN'T. To the first, I say you're welcome to join the "why you believe what you believe" thread and explain what your beliefs are based on, but I doubt you'll do that, because I doubt you have much basis to go on! To the second, I'll ask this: "are your beliefs on, say, homosexuality based on what the God described in the Bible says?" I imagine the response would be, "No, I don't believe God exists." Well, then, YOUR beliefs are based on what you think does/doesn't exist, just like mine

So to sum up, "religious", atheistic, and agnostic worldviews are IDENTICAL in that they are beliefs that CANNOT be intellectually or scientifically proved, and we base our morality on them.

Now sadly, many Christians DO base their beliefs on "well, that's what God said!", without spending any thought on WHY they believe that God exists. And just as sadly, many atheists and agnostics base THEIR beliefs on "well, that's just what I think!", without spending any thought on WHY they believe that God DOESN'T exist. I'm not like that, and that's why I objected to you (apparently) characterizing ALL Christians like that. As I've said before, I've given a LOT of thought to the subject, probably more than many (tho not all) atheists and agnostics, from what I've actually heard.

So Falagar - would you please read my description of the thoughts behind my beliefs, and then tell me if you would still lump me into that category?
Here they are - it's 5 posts long (not all in a row):

1. post 1

2. post 2

3. post 3

4. post 4

5. post 5


So yes, my beliefs on submission involve my belief that God exists. But it's not at ALL like your dumbed-down version ("God says so!") It's more like this: I'm in a first-year physics class (ah, I remember that class well - I had an Indian teacher, and it was right after lunch - SO hard to stay awake with that lovely sing-song voice!) and the guy next to me whispers, "I don't think she's quite right! Steven says so!" (Falagar - compare to your "God says so!")
I look at him and say, "Come on, she's the teacher! She has a degree in physics! Why would your friend know more?"
He says, "My friend is Steven Hawking."
I might say, "I don't know who he is; why should I believe him?"
He would say, "Well, I am well aware of who he is and why I should believe what he says, so I'll go with what he says, based on his expertise and my belief in him and my knowlege of him. You go ahead and believe how you think is right."

(This analogy needs some work - it's just a rough one - but do you see what I'm trying to get across?)

I have a well-thought-out, reasonable belief that God exists, and I can expound on the reasons behind my belief for many posts! At the VERY LEAST, my beliefs are equal to atheistic and agnostic beliefs, in the sense of they are NONE of them proveable. I didn't just pick up a book at random one day called "The Bible" and decide to believe it without any analysis. Yet very often, I am wrongly characterized as doing just that! If anyone wants to claim that, then they are welcome to match my 5 posts and many subsequent posts on the "why you believe" thread with their own

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

So yes, my beliefs on submission involve my belief that God exists. But it's not at ALL like your dumbed-down version ("God says so!") It's more like this: I'm in a first-year physics class (ah, I remember that class well - I had an Indian teacher, and it was right after lunch - SO hard to stay awake with that lovely sing-song voice!) and the guy next to me whispers, "I don't think she's quite right! Steven says so!" (Falagar - compare to your "God says so!")
I look at him and say, "Come on, she's the teacher! She has a degree in physics! Why would your friend know more?"
He says, "My friend is Steven Hawking."
I might say, "I don't know who he is; why should I believe him?"
He would say, "Well, I am well aware of who he is and why I should believe what he says, so I'll go with what he says, based on his expertise and my belief in him and my knowlege of him. You go ahead and believe how you think is right."

(This analogy needs some work - it's just a rough one - but do you see what I'm trying to get across?)

I have a well-thought-out, reasonable belief that God exists, and I can expound on the reasons behind my belief for many posts! At the VERY LEAST, my beliefs are equal to atheistic and agnostic beliefs, in the sense of they are NONE of them proveable. I didn't just pick up a book at random one day called "The Bible" and decide to believe it without any analysis. Yet very often, I am wrongly characterized as doing just that! If anyone wants to claim that, then they are welcome to match my 5 posts and many subsequent posts on the "why you believe" thread with their own

I personally don't think you really answered the question - but just went around in circles here.

[Rían]

(Nurvi - I'm very sorry this is taking so long - this is an important related issue, IMO, and I wanted to deal with it. Also, I've found thru sad experience that there appears to be a few people (VERY few, thankfully!) here who seem more interested in arguing than in holding a good discussion, and I've found that it's easier to go slowly and take my time wording things than to be "hasty" and then have to spend multiple posts clearing up a misunderstanding which just ruins the flow of the discussion. So I have to go slowly in order to keep the thread going well. Hang in there - I'll get to your questions!)

[Rían]

So what are your thoughts on that post, Falagar and Nurvi? (and katya - I hope you're still around!) I think it's VERY important to establish that "religious" people are coming from the same place as "non-religious" people, for they are BOTH acting on non-proven beliefs

But to continue, while waiting for your comments - I'll move onto some more direct comments on the subject, altho I think the background comments I made are absolutely crucial to discussing this topic!

SO - In my experience talking with many people about this subject, I've found that they are WELL aware of the verse about wives submitting to their husbands, but they are usually NOT aware of the "companion" verse to the husbands.

Before I go further, do you guys remember what it is? I've mentioned it before ...

[Nurvingiel]

Through! Through! *clutches dictionary* I just think it's funny that you'll type out a long, thoughtful post without one misspelt word, then can't be bothered to type out three more letters to make "through". (And yes, I do see the irony in the length of this statement. )

No worries RÃ*. In the meantime, for your reading pleasure, I have a comment about the current discussion.

I wouldn't say going around in circles, I'd say following a rabbit trail. Sure, they both have the same literal meaning, but the intent is different. I don't think RÃ* is skirting the question, I think she's exploring it.

I can relate to your physics analogy in a peripheral way - I had a disappointingly boring 8am lecture from a prof who, though boring, had a very pleasant voice. I drank a lot of coffee and/or slept a lot in that class. Anyway enough of my own rabbit-trailing (or for the less charitable, off topic posting).

I think that before we should decide who can or will believe in Biblical submission, we really need to clarify what it is. I think I can safely say that neither JD, Jonathan, or I have any idea.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Also, I've found thru sad experience that there appears to be a few people (VERY few, thankfully!) here who seem more interested in arguing than in holding a good discussion,

I suppose I will answer this. It's not about arguing with you Rian - you however don't seem to like being called out on things you say that make no sense or where you beat around the bush and never answer it. You seem IMO to only want to have a discussion with people who will sugar coat things for you. I'm not going to do that. If you haev something to say - then say it. Don't post one long post that is impossible to respond to because it goes in cirlces. Just post how you feel about submission and then we can decide how we will respond.

So just answer Nurv's question so we can get on with the discussion.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Through! Through! *clutches dictionary* I just think it's funny that you'll type out a long, thoughtful post without one misspelt word, then can't be bothered to type out three more letters to make "through". (And yes, I do see the irony in the length of this statement. )

Yeah, I guess that's pretty funny!! OK, I'll try just for YOU, sweetie-Nurv!

through through through through!

EDIT - wait, it's not through, it's THOUGH!! maybe that's why I don't want to type it out, I make mistakes with it!

I don't think RÃ* is skirting the question, I think she's exploring it.

EXACTLY, Nurv, EXACTLY! That's IT! I never thought of it that way before, but that's EXACTLY what I'm doing. I'm glad you said that - that puts a word to the way I like to talk and think I like exploring! I like thinking about things! I like hearing other opinions and following them for awhile and seeing where they go! And I LOVE doing it with good, kind, intelligent people!

I think I can safely say that neither JD, Jonathan, or I have any idea.

I'm getting there, Nurv - I'll try to curtail my exploring urge a bit I started with asking if anyone knew the companion verse. I'll be back in a coupla hours to answer - gtg pick up the kiddos now.

Let's EXPLORE!! Whee!!

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

So what are your thoughts on that post, Falagar and Nurvi? (and katya - I hope you're still around!) I think it's VERY important to establish that "religious" people are coming from the same place as "non-religious" people, for they are BOTH acting on non-proven beliefs

Well actually - your statements about Agnostics make really no sense - because agnostics by defintion say they have no idea one way or the other about god. Also - the issue isn't about god - it's about the bible really and whether you make your own mind up about things by observation - or if you base all your beliefs on a book. You can stil believe in god and not rely on the bible for everything that you believe in.

So I don't think that everyone is coming from the same place.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by RÃ*

EXACTLY, Nurv, EXACTLY! That's IT!

no need to shout

or in the words of Michael Winner:
"Calm down dear, it's only a commercial!"

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I think that before we should decide who can or will believe in Biblical submission, we really need to clarify what it is. I think I can safely say that neither JD, Jonathan, or I have any idea.

Well even rian can't really state what it is - because it's an intepritation. I'm not sure why I wouldn't be able to say what it is - since I went to Catholic School for 12 years and yes - we even studied the bible. I can also state what biblical submission means to pentecostals in Indiana. The only thing Rian can really do - and I wish she would clarify this - is that she can state what SHE interprets as biblical submission. Every religion treats it and interprets it differently.

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Here's my answer - what's YOUR basis for arguing against submission? (which I assume you do) Do you argue based on your opinion what is right? Well, if so, you're doing the same thing I'm doing.

Well, I think women should have as much say in their own affairs as men do. I can see no reason why they should submit.

So usually step 1 for me in moral discussions is to show that atheistic and agnostic beliefs are exactly the same as "religious" beliefs, in the sense that NONE OF THEM can be proved "right". NONE of them. And that's why I like to group them ALL together using the term "worldview".

Of course, agnostic belief is that it's impossible to know for sure what is correct, which is certainly true (as you yourself admit), so their belief is in that respect right.

From there, the usual objections from agnostics and/or atheists are either that no one can prove that God exists, and you might as well claim something like a giant turtle is really God, or that that MY beliefs are based on someone that may not exist, and theirs AREN'T. To the first, I say you're welcome to join the "why you believe what you believe" thread and explain what your beliefs are based on, but I doubt you'll do that, because I doubt you have much basis to go on! To the second, I'll ask this: "are your beliefs on, say, homosexuality based on what the God described in the Bible says?" I imagine the response would be, "No, I don't believe God exists." Well, then, YOUR beliefs are based on what you think does/doesn't exist, just like mine

So to sum up, "religious", atheistic, and agnostic worldviews are IDENTICAL in that they are beliefs that CANNOT be intellectually or scientifically proved, and we base our morality on them.

As I said, since Agnostic belief means that you believe that one can't intellectually or scientifically prove atheistic or religious world-views (currently) they are right.

And who is assuming things now? I don't know whether God exists or not, but I feel that we as humans can't keep someone from doing things that can't be proven to hurt others, especially when these people don't hold the same beliefs as us.

Now sadly, many Christians DO base their beliefs on "well, that's what God said!", without spending any thought on WHY they believe that God exists. And just as sadly, many atheists and agnostics base THEIR beliefs on "well, that's just what I think!", without spending any thought on WHY they believe that God DOESN'T exist. I'm not like that, and that's why I objected to you (apparently) characterizing ALL Christians like that. As I've said before, I've given a LOT of thought to the subject, probably more than many (tho not all) atheists and agnostics, from what I've actually heard.

I think most agnostic/atheists don't believe in God because they find the whole story unrealistic and because there isn't any strong proof for God (and as it's much harder to prove that something doesn't exist than to say it does).

So Falagar - would you please read my description of the thoughts behind my beliefs, and then tell me if you would still lump me into that category?
Here they are - it's 5 posts long (not all in a row):

I don't think I have lumped you into any cathegory except from 'Christian' (which you, of course, are free to deny ). I'll have to read those posts some other time, too tired at the moment.

So yes, my beliefs on submission involve my belief that God exists. But it's not at ALL like your dumbed-down version ("God says so!") It's more like this: I'm in a first-year physics class (ah, I remember that class well - I had an Indian teacher, and it was right after lunch - SO hard to stay awake with that lovely sing-song voice!) and the guy next to me whispers, "I don't think she's quite right! Steven says so!" (Falagar - compare to your "God says so!")
I look at him and say, "Come on, she's the teacher! She has a degree in physics! Why would your friend know more?"
He says, "My friend is Steven Hawking."
I might say, "I don't know who he is; why should I believe him?"
He would say, "Well, I am well aware of who he is and why I should believe what he says, so I'll go with what he says, based on his expertise and my belief in him and my knowlege of him. You go ahead and believe how you think is right."

(This analogy needs some work - it's just a rough one - but do you see what I'm trying to get across?)

Of course, but it still comes down to someone claiming to write Gods will said so, and since God is infallible and omnipotent it has to be right. If you don't believe in God it doesn't make any sense at all. You may very well explain why you think God is right in saying so, but that doesn't refute the fact that you believe it because God says so.

I have a well-thought-out, reasonable belief that God exists, and I can expound on the reasons behind my belief for many posts! At the VERY LEAST, my beliefs are equal to atheistic and agnostic beliefs, in the sense of they are NONE of them proveable. I didn't just pick up a book at random one day called "The Bible" and decide to believe it without any analysis. Yet very often, I am wrongly characterized as doing just that! If anyone wants to claim that, then they are welcome to match my 5 posts and many subsequent posts on the "why you believe" thread with their own

I think most people would characterize their beliefs as well-thought-out and reasonable.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

So what are your thoughts on that post, Falagar and Nurvi? (and katya - I hope you're still around!) I think it's VERY important to establish that "religious" people are coming from the same place as "non-religious" people, for they are BOTH acting on non-proven beliefs

What post? I'm so confused..... see, that's the danger of too much exploring. But I'll be patient for your definitions. (Then we can explore after. Whee!)

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Well even rian can't really state what it is - because it's an intepritation. I'm not sure why I wouldn't be able to say what it is - since I went to Catholic School for 12 years and yes - we even studied the bible. I can also state what biblical submission means to pentecostals in Indiana. The only thing Rian can really do - and I wish she would clarify this - is that she can state what SHE interprets as biblical submission. Every religion treats it and interprets it differently.

True, but I don't think that RÃ* is hiding this on purpose. Her posts are peppered with variations of "your world view and my world view are unproveable".
If you feel like saying what it is JD of course your interpretation is welcome. In fact, two people explaining this concept would be interesting.

Do you mean every denomination treats it and interprets it differently? I think we can say Christianity is the only religion with Biblical submission.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

so, for the efforts of getting my head straight, can i clarify?
Is it therefore true that a woman must submit to her husbands will?

whatever happened to feminism? the grand movements from emeline pankhurst to germaine greer? and what has happened to the world if this is truly the case?

i can not imagine a world where a womand does as a man tells her to, it is rather the opposite in my experience, all the women i have ever known have been top dog in relationships, so i hope that i have my inter[pretation of this "submission" thing totally andf utterly wrong

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

so, for the efforts of getting my head straight, can i clarify?
Is it therefore true that a woman must submit to her husbands will?

Not IMHO!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Falagar

I think most people would characterize their beliefs as well-thought-out and reasonable.

I would hope so! But IMO, the problem is when people characterize other people's beliefs, if they are different from their own, as being necessarily NOT well-thought-out and reasonable. Anyone can hold a belief they haven't thought out; IMO it's wrong to assume an individual person has not thought out their beliefs solely because they belong to a certain group.

IMO, it's an error to differentiate between "religious" belief and other worldview beliefs like atheism and agnosticism. ALL of these beliefs, IMO, are beliefs that people base their moral thoughts and decisions on. Personally (to be fair and blame my own "side" when blame is due), I think it's a backlash from some "religious" people being overbearing and obnoxious. But let's not go too far the other way. To paraphrase what Nolendil said long ago *pauses for a moment of silence for a Mooter she misses* - "we ALL are perfectly able to be brainless gits!"

Let's judge each person by what they say; NOT by what group we think they might fall into.

And now to continue my exploring ... we go to Genesis ... (since I will support my claims about what the Bible says about this subject with actual Bible verses. And I ask anyone else who makes claims about Biblical submission to do this, too, please.)

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Do you mean every denomination treats it and interprets it differently? I think we can say Christianity is the only religion with Biblical submission.

And under christianity there is Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal, Anglican. Greak Orthodox, Greak Catholic, etc, etc and they all interpret the bible differently. So it's not a matter of whether it's only Christian - which it is not - it's in the Koran also and since a lot of it is mentioned in the old testement - it's in the Jewish religion also - it's the fact that there are many different religions with their own beliefs that make up Christianity. It's just a matter of whether people believe that it should be followed and how strongly.

I don't give much weight to it and feel it's a hold over form an ancient time where it was felt that men had to keep woman in their place.

[Rían]

(grrr, was ready to post on something in Genesis, had the books laid out, then the evening turned upside down - I thought I would have an hour or so, then it went away *poof*! Ah, such is life ... )

edit - boy, was that a pointless post!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by rian

it's an error to differentiate between "religious" belief and other worldview beliefs like atheism and agnosticism

it ios also a mistake to say that atheism is not religious - there are many atheistic religions, which just means that they do not have a supreme deity