03-21-2005, 05:44 PM | #201 | |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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03-21-2005, 05:52 PM | #202 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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In the pentecostal religion it's bad too. Skirts, no make-up, long hair and the husband is the boss. (although Jonathan says that pentecostals aren't as fanatical in Sweden as they are in Indiana)
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03-21-2005, 06:48 PM | #203 | |
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I think there's a lot of unfair prejudice and stereotyping against people with so-called "religious" beliefs. From what I've heard, many atheists and agnostics have this odd belief that their beliefs are somehow neutral, while "religious" people's beliefs aren't. They tell "religious" people to NOT bring their beliefs into a discussion, yet they themselves freely bring their beliefs into discussions. Go figure! I freely admit, over and over, that my belief that Christianity (as explained in the Bible) is a statement of the true state of the universe may very well be wrong. After a lot of thought and research, I really think I AM right, but I certainly wouldn't claim to KNOW I'm right. (I might occasionally say "I know I'm right!" in a heart sense, like "I know in my heart", but I certainly wouldn't claim to know I'm intellectually right beyond all doubt.) So usually step 1 for me in moral discussions is to show that atheistic and agnostic beliefs are exactly the same as "religious" beliefs, in the sense that NONE OF THEM can be proved "right". NONE of them. And that's why I like to group them ALL together using the term "worldview". From there, the usual objections from agnostics and/or atheists are either that no one can prove that God exists, and you might as well claim something like a giant turtle is really God, or that that MY beliefs are based on someone that may not exist, and theirs AREN'T. To the first, I say you're welcome to join the "why you believe what you believe" thread and explain what your beliefs are based on, but I doubt you'll do that, because I doubt you have much basis to go on! To the second, I'll ask this: "are your beliefs on, say, homosexuality based on what the God described in the Bible says?" I imagine the response would be, "No, I don't believe God exists." Well, then, YOUR beliefs are based on what you think does/doesn't exist, just like mine So to sum up, "religious", atheistic, and agnostic worldviews are IDENTICAL in that they are beliefs that CANNOT be intellectually or scientifically proved, and we base our morality on them. Now sadly, many Christians DO base their beliefs on "well, that's what God said!", without spending any thought on WHY they believe that God exists. And just as sadly, many atheists and agnostics base THEIR beliefs on "well, that's just what I think!", without spending any thought on WHY they believe that God DOESN'T exist. I'm not like that, and that's why I objected to you (apparently) characterizing ALL Christians like that. As I've said before, I've given a LOT of thought to the subject, probably more than many (tho not all) atheists and agnostics, from what I've actually heard. So Falagar - would you please read my description of the thoughts behind my beliefs, and then tell me if you would still lump me into that category? Here they are - it's 5 posts long (not all in a row): 1. post 1 2. post 2 3. post 3 4. post 4 5. post 5 So yes, my beliefs on submission involve my belief that God exists. But it's not at ALL like your dumbed-down version ("God says so!") It's more like this: I'm in a first-year physics class (ah, I remember that class well - I had an Indian teacher, and it was right after lunch - SO hard to stay awake with that lovely sing-song voice!) and the guy next to me whispers, "I don't think she's quite right! Steven says so!" (Falagar - compare to your "God says so!") I look at him and say, "Come on, she's the teacher! She has a degree in physics! Why would your friend know more?" He says, "My friend is Steven Hawking." I might say, "I don't know who he is; why should I believe him?" He would say, "Well, I am well aware of who he is and why I should believe what he says, so I'll go with what he says, based on his expertise and my belief in him and my knowlege of him. You go ahead and believe how you think is right." (This analogy needs some work - it's just a rough one - but do you see what I'm trying to get across?) I have a well-thought-out, reasonable belief that God exists, and I can expound on the reasons behind my belief for many posts! At the VERY LEAST, my beliefs are equal to atheistic and agnostic beliefs, in the sense of they are NONE of them proveable. I didn't just pick up a book at random one day called "The Bible" and decide to believe it without any analysis. Yet very often, I am wrongly characterized as doing just that! If anyone wants to claim that, then they are welcome to match my 5 posts and many subsequent posts on the "why you believe" thread with their own
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-21-2005 at 06:55 PM. |
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03-21-2005, 06:57 PM | #204 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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03-21-2005, 07:02 PM | #205 |
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(Nurvi - I'm very sorry this is taking so long - this is an important related issue, IMO, and I wanted to deal with it. Also, I've found thru sad experience that there appears to be a few people (VERY few, thankfully!) here who seem more interested in arguing than in holding a good discussion, and I've found that it's easier to go slowly and take my time wording things than to be "hasty" and then have to spend multiple posts clearing up a misunderstanding which just ruins the flow of the discussion. So I have to go slowly in order to keep the thread going well. Hang in there - I'll get to your questions!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-21-2005 at 07:04 PM. |
03-21-2005, 07:08 PM | #206 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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So what are your thoughts on that post, Falagar and Nurvi? (and katya - I hope you're still around!) I think it's VERY important to establish that "religious" people are coming from the same place as "non-religious" people, for they are BOTH acting on non-proven beliefs
But to continue, while waiting for your comments - I'll move onto some more direct comments on the subject, altho I think the background comments I made are absolutely crucial to discussing this topic! SO - In my experience talking with many people about this subject, I've found that they are WELL aware of the verse about wives submitting to their husbands, but they are usually NOT aware of the "companion" verse to the husbands. Before I go further, do you guys remember what it is? I've mentioned it before ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-21-2005, 07:10 PM | #207 | ||
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Through! Through! *clutches dictionary* I just think it's funny that you'll type out a long, thoughtful post without one misspelt word, then can't be bothered to type out three more letters to make "through". (And yes, I do see the irony in the length of this statement. )
No worries RÃ*. In the meantime, for your reading pleasure, I have a comment about the current discussion. I wouldn't say going around in circles, I'd say following a rabbit trail. Sure, they both have the same literal meaning, but the intent is different. I don't think RÃ* is skirting the question, I think she's exploring it. I can relate to your physics analogy in a peripheral way - I had a disappointingly boring 8am lecture from a prof who, though boring, had a very pleasant voice. I drank a lot of coffee and/or slept a lot in that class. Anyway enough of my own rabbit-trailing (or for the less charitable, off topic posting). I think that before we should decide who can or will believe in Biblical submission, we really need to clarify what it is. I think I can safely say that neither JD, Jonathan, or I have any idea.
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 03-21-2005 at 07:12 PM. |
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03-21-2005, 07:11 PM | #208 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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So just answer Nurv's question so we can get on with the discussion.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 03-21-2005 at 07:13 PM. |
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03-21-2005, 07:18 PM | #209 | |||
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through through through through! EDIT - wait, it's not through, it's THOUGH!! maybe that's why I don't want to type it out, I make mistakes with it! Quote:
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Let's EXPLORE!! Whee!!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-21-2005 at 07:19 PM. |
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03-21-2005, 07:18 PM | #210 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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So I don't think that everyone is coming from the same place.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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03-21-2005, 07:21 PM | #211 | |
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or in the words of Michael Winner: "Calm down dear, it's only a commercial!" |
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03-21-2005, 07:22 PM | #212 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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03-21-2005, 07:29 PM | #213 | |||||||
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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And who is assuming things now? I don't know whether God exists or not, but I feel that we as humans can't keep someone from doing things that can't be proven to hurt others, especially when these people don't hold the same beliefs as us. Quote:
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03-21-2005, 07:30 PM | #214 | ||||
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If you feel like saying what it is JD of course your interpretation is welcome. In fact, two people explaining this concept would be interesting. Do you mean every denomination treats it and interprets it differently? I think we can say Christianity is the only religion with Biblical submission.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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03-21-2005, 07:35 PM | #215 |
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so, for the efforts of getting my head straight, can i clarify?
Is it therefore true that a woman must submit to her husbands will? whatever happened to feminism? the grand movements from emeline pankhurst to germaine greer? and what has happened to the world if this is truly the case? i can not imagine a world where a womand does as a man tells her to, it is rather the opposite in my experience, all the women i have ever known have been top dog in relationships, so i hope that i have my inter[pretation of this "submission" thing totally andf utterly wrong |
03-21-2005, 09:54 PM | #216 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-21-2005, 10:04 PM | #217 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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IMO, it's an error to differentiate between "religious" belief and other worldview beliefs like atheism and agnosticism. ALL of these beliefs, IMO, are beliefs that people base their moral thoughts and decisions on. Personally (to be fair and blame my own "side" when blame is due), I think it's a backlash from some "religious" people being overbearing and obnoxious. But let's not go too far the other way. To paraphrase what Nolendil said long ago *pauses for a moment of silence for a Mooter she misses* - "we ALL are perfectly able to be brainless gits!" Let's judge each person by what they say; NOT by what group we think they might fall into. And now to continue my exploring ... we go to Genesis ... (since I will support my claims about what the Bible says about this subject with actual Bible verses. And I ask anyone else who makes claims about Biblical submission to do this, too, please.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-22-2005, 02:30 AM | #218 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I don't give much weight to it and feel it's a hold over form an ancient time where it was felt that men had to keep woman in their place.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 03-22-2005 at 02:33 AM. |
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03-22-2005, 02:33 AM | #219 |
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(grrr, was ready to post on something in Genesis, had the books laid out, then the evening turned upside down - I thought I would have an hour or so, then it went away *poof*! Ah, such is life ... )
edit - boy, was that a pointless post!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-22-2005 at 04:52 AM. |
03-22-2005, 08:34 AM | #220 | |
The Intermittent One
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