11-04-2003, 01:55 AM | #2161 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Basically, I see a logical problem with the worldview of atheism in dealing with the very observable fact of the existence of morality in humans. The Christian worldview is that God has placed in every person a moral code - the sense that certain actions are either RIGHT or WRONG. And what do we observe? That this is indeed the case! (much to our chagrin when we go against what we think is right - that darn uncomfy feeling in our conscience....) The athiestic worldview, and the worldview of the most commonly accepted version of evolution, is that there is no God, and that there is no intelligent, moral guiding force behind the universe. And if you think thru the implications, this means that there is NO basis for people having moral values. IOW, we happened to evolve the way we did, but there is no right or wrong about it. How can there be right or wrong about random chance and natural selection? The mechanism of natural selection does not allow only the "nice" organisms thru, does it? The mech. of NS does not make moral judgements; it does not make ANY judgements - it is just a name given to the idea that those species that just happen to have beneficial mutations will naturally survive. So we have a very stubbornly-observable fact that humankind has moral values, and yet have no basis in that worldview for saying that ANY decision we make is either right or wrong. And this is a SERIOUS logical defect in atheism/atheistic evolution. Do you see, or do I need to explain it more, or do you see but disagree (and in that case, please present your case ) Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-04-2003 at 01:59 AM. |
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11-04-2003, 02:01 AM | #2162 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-04-2003, 02:06 AM | #2163 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Why do ethical actions even happen, unless they are based on moral judgement, which cannot be explained in an atheistic worldview? What law says things should zero out? If it is a physical law, then it has no bearing on a moral question. If all action is eventually pointless, why do you think certain things are good and bad anyway? I disagree that the answer is 0. I think the answer is God, and He is a glorious, positive infinity
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-04-2003, 02:36 AM | #2164 | |||||||||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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11-04-2003, 02:46 AM | #2165 |
Quasi Evil
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is it me or are we talking about the same thing in three different threads?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
11-04-2003, 05:31 AM | #2166 | |
Elf Lord
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Thanks for the matchmaking, but the Gaffer's spoken for. Believe me, hell hath no fury like the Widow Rumble scorned. BTW, it's a toad. The hypno-toad, in fact. We interrupt this mutual appreciation society to bring you an on-topic comment: I think "machine" is a pretty limited description of what people are (or even animals). When they invented the telephone exchange, people started to say "well, if you think of the brain as a telephone exchange". When they invented the computer, people started to say "well, if you think of the brain as a computer". These are useful analogies, but nothing more. It's experience that really matters, and that's something machines don't have. It may well be that there ARE mechanical correlates for all that goes on in my tiny amphibian mind, but that doesn't explain why a sunset is beautiful or what it means to me to love and care for my tadpole or what it feels like to walk barefoot in the grass on a summer afternoon. Ever seen a dog run just for the sheer joy of it? Does that look like a machine? Equally, I think that attributing these things to the "love of God" is too easy an answer. Mystery rules! Last edited by The Gaffer : 11-04-2003 at 05:33 AM. |
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11-04-2003, 07:10 AM | #2167 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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11-04-2003, 09:07 AM | #2168 | ||
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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11-04-2003, 09:12 AM | #2169 | |
Elf Lord
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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11-04-2003, 10:13 AM | #2170 | |
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IRex (may I call you IRex?)
I agree that our moral values come from our origin as social animals. In th Ancestral Environment, living in small family groups on the savannah, it was better for our survival if you could trust people most of the time- you could turn your back on someone without worrying that they were going to jump you, or steal your food, so the most sociopathic genes got eliminated. Everyone knew who could be trusted, and who couldn't, so a basic moral sense got instilled. And here's an article that suggests we may be evolving into a more peacable and co-operative species. Quote:
BUT (it's a big but) there was still the counter force of trying to survive and pass on your genes at any cost (as you pointed out to Rian, the ones who gave up aren't around). I see that in human history as a working out of these competing instincts. Work together; but try and dominate the group. Have laws and rules so you can let your guard down among your own (who originally were close relatives), but wage war against outsiders. Form pair-bonds, but get some on the side to spread your genes (male) or get better genes or resources (females) So the wonderful power of speech, which is based on trust, also gives us liars and conmen (some would add lawyers and politicians) So if we know our moral impulses come from our evolutionary psychology, the correct option would be to follow the rules unless you can get away with it- if either your breaking them won't become known, which could lead to a general collapse of social order; or if the advantage is so great that it's worth it- then go for it, all the while trying to convince everybody else that they should follow the rules. So just knowing where our moral impulses come from doesn't really justify them or cause us to agree that we should follow them all the time- it may even weaken our principles.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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11-04-2003, 02:41 PM | #2171 | ||||||||
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We are not things. |
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11-04-2003, 03:25 PM | #2172 | ||||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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11-04-2003, 03:40 PM | #2173 | ||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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11-04-2003, 05:31 PM | #2174 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Okay, I agree that some accidents are good accidents; but, it seems to me very rare that an accident is a good thing. Let us then suppose just for the sake of this argument that human beings are from the "good accident"; or, if you prefer, frogs . Then it seems to me that for this one good accident, there must be a host of "bad accidents", those which did not prove to have a good result. This would then, it seems to me, be all, or almost all, of the living things, except for frogs. Does that explain it better?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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11-04-2003, 07:50 PM | #2175 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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ok, this question is in response to several things that have been discussed on the Gays/Lesbians/Bisexual thread.
anyway, I'm trying to gauge an opinion of various Christian beliefs regarding contraception. What do you believe to be morally acceptable and why? I'll start by saying tha the Church opposes ALL forms of contraception and only promots NFP or Natural Family Planning. That is the belief I follow as well. Anyone else? BTW Christians aren't the only ones who can post regarding this topic...I'm also interested in the views of anyone else (Jewish, Muslim, atheist, agnostic, Buddist etc) |
11-04-2003, 09:17 PM | #2176 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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IRex, I added the bolding to this quote by GrayMouser:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-04-2003 at 09:32 PM. |
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11-04-2003, 09:32 PM | #2177 | ||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'm sorry, IRex, but I cannot let that one slide, because it's so critical to the discussion. Even tho the Gaffer and I are on opposite sides of the question on whether or not God exists, I am firmly on the Gaffer's side that beauty exists, and has nothing to do with whether or not it's good for survival. In your scenario, there is no value in beauty unless it helps survival, right? Do you really believe that? If so, that's tragic, IMO. I'm going to go play my harp and enjoy some beauty - cya later!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-04-2003 at 09:35 PM. |
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11-04-2003, 10:45 PM | #2178 | |
Lord of the Pants
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11-05-2003, 12:00 AM | #2179 | |
Elf Lord
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I don't follow what you mean about "bad accidents". If you're coming at this from an evolutionary point of view, bad accidents are simply those which have a bad effect on survival. Human beings are not privileged above other animals; evolution is not a ladder.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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11-05-2003, 12:21 AM | #2180 | |
Elf Lord
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A thorough-going ethical theory has to provide a reason as to why we should behave properly even when we can get away with behaving badly.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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