11-03-2003, 01:27 AM | #2141 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I wanted to try to revive this topic, because I wanted to hear from the athiests a little more about their views on suffering. I don't think the atheistic view matches what we see and experience all around us every day, and I think the Christian view does.
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1. So there is no being outside of the universe? If that's the case, why should it matter if I go around hurting people? After all, we're all just accidents. 2. But we could just as easily have evolved as non-social animals - in fact, maybe that's the next step in our evolution! - so you can have no objection to my going around hurting people, because instincts are neither right nor wrong, correct? 3. Then you can have no objection to my killing everyone and putting them out of their misery, right? 4. Why even bother to find a solution if there is no problem? How can one moral feeling be judged better than another, unless there is some outside standard that we judge them against? We're all gonna end up as slime again anyway, just like our supposed ancestor, so why not just kill everyone and get it over with? (ps - I do NOT condone killing everyone, obviously! but only bring it up as a logical problem I see with the atheistic and evolutionary viewpoint.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 11-03-2003 at 01:29 AM. |
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11-03-2003, 03:16 AM | #2142 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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It's not a logical problem. The impact of your theoretical act of violence is a direct result of that (theorectical) physical action. The consequences would be real suffering. It is still pontless and the victim certainly doesn't benefit and it seems to have no purpose. Logic has no constraining effect. If you can kill everyone without creating misery in order to end it then we need you in Washington because they haven't figured out that on yet.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
11-03-2003, 09:02 AM | #2143 | |||
Elf Lord
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The answer to your questions is... I don't know (other than point 3- we're not all miserable; some of us are quite enjoying ourselves and don't want it to stop ) This is, of course, the central dilemma of secular humanist thought (secular because it has to be dealt with without recourse to Higher Powers; humanist in the broad sense of caring what happens to other people). In modern times, first raised by the Marquis de Sade, who correctly pointed out that the other Enlightenment philosophes were trying to keep an ethical structure standing while rejecting the foundation (God). This is the 'natural rights' theory which most modern humanists follow, without really justifying it. The Marquis's answer was that since we are 'nothing but' animals we are justified in preying on each other for our own pleasure. Nietszche made the same point with greater depth and insight, and proposed rejecting Christian morality along with democracy, liberalism and socialism, which he considered Christianity's feeble offspring. (I'm going through this historical background in the same spirit as doing an essay question on a test when you don't know the answer- keep writing down words and hope you fill up the space without the examiners realising you don't know) Most answers have been some variation on the social contract- it's to my benefit to live in a society where people don't normally prey unrestrainedly on each other, but this doesn't answer the basic question of cheating i.e. why shouldn't I break the contract- lie, steal, murder- when I can get away with it? Or why shouldn't I reject it all together if I feel strong enough? Quote:
I'll try and get more up on this a little later. from Cirdan Quote:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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11-03-2003, 12:43 PM | #2144 |
Elven Warrior
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Mouser,
You said earlier that the world is how it is despite human desire. Then you said that the universe is nothing more than a combination of physical laws and randomness. It seems that you are stating that the universe is an objective reality that is independent of the human mind. However, in saying that the universe is physical laws, and all laws are mental constructs, you place the universe back in the sphere of subjectivism. So do you think the universe is an objective reality, or a reality that is dependent on mental constructs and thus dependent on human mind? I’m not clear what you mean by randomness. Do you mean that the universe is governed by random occurrences of physical bodies or energies interacting with other physical bodies or energies? or random effects of random causes? or the random perceptions of rational minds? Regards, Dave
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
11-03-2003, 02:00 PM | #2145 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-03-2003, 02:05 PM | #2146 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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11-03-2003, 02:09 PM | #2147 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Hey Gwaimir,
I THINK GrayMouser is introspecting nicely and admitting some gaps in atheistic thinking in these areas Rian brings to attention. I think he's not saying, it SHOULD be based on "that's not the way we do it in my tribe"... rather, I think he's admitting that this is what it sometimes boils down to... when atheists set moral standards. GrayMouser - am I reading you correctly there? |
11-03-2003, 02:28 PM | #2148 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-03-2003, 02:31 PM | #2149 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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GrayMouser - IMO, you have intellectual integrity, and it showed in your last post. That's why I like posting with you.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-03-2003, 02:54 PM | #2150 | |
Quasi Evil
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Just because someone doesn’t believe in god (which isn’t a genetic trait. Its simply a cultural one) certainly doesn’t mean they have no compulsion against hurting or killing others. I don’t see why that’s at all hard to grasp. By the way if Christianity is the only source to morality then why has it been used as a rightful justification for mass murder even extermination in human history? Morality is simply independent of religion.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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11-03-2003, 03:33 PM | #2151 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Christianity is not the only source of morality; such an idea is ridiculous. God, however, is.
Also, a question: Why is it perfectly acceptable for Saracen sword to take the land and slaughter pilgrims, but wrong for Christian lance to retake it later? Quite simple: Because it is a Christian lance. Allow me to quote from St. Justin Martyr, when he wrote to the Roman Emperior: "...if any of the accused deny the name [of "Christian"], and say that he is not a Christian, you acquit him, as having no evidence against him as a wrong-doer; but if any one acknowledge that he is a Christian, you punish him on account of this acknowledgement." It is for the name of Christ that the Christian is hated, and the Muslim accepted; the Crusader would be an all right chap, if not for the Cross.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
11-03-2003, 03:52 PM | #2152 | |||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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If you were nothing more than instincts, I probably can't judge whether you hurting people is right or wrong from your perspective. Right or wrong are IMHO elements belonging to reason, not instinct. But I don't see why I can't object to it. Instincts aren't all about hurting others either. Quote:
It could be just me but these deductions look slightly illogical to me. Here and there, there are some very big leaps taken to arrive at the next point.
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We are not things. |
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11-03-2003, 04:18 PM | #2153 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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11-03-2003, 04:30 PM | #2154 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Gwai, are you comparing humans to typo's now?
Well I disagree that accidents are always without purpose of value. Just because something was unintentional, doesn't mean it's worthless.
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We are not things. |
11-03-2003, 05:06 PM | #2155 |
Elf Lord
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Absolutely. Perception is intention, so we can't get away from it. There may be randomness out there in objective reality, but we immediately start to impose order, and thence meaning and value, upon it as soon as we perceive it.
To me, morality has greater value, not less, because it derives from the person and not from the divine. And atheists don't have to be materialists. Lots of great chat going on tonight. Curse the deadline that takes me away! Have fun. |
11-03-2003, 05:25 PM | #2156 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Earniel: Only the evolutionist (note: not all who believe in evolution) view of them; to me, the two are quite different.
Accidents can be good, but they rarely are. The vast majority of the time, they are not good things. So then, assuming that we as accidents have value; do then the beasts and birds as "lesser accidents" not have value? Few accidents turn out to really be good things, few accidents lead to things of value. Pardon, Gaffer; I usually use atheist and materialist interchangeably, I suppose because it seems to me, if there is some supernatural force above us, it is in effect a deity.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
11-04-2003, 01:07 AM | #2157 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Um, BTW, have you met Eärniel? (this could be a match made in heaven..... Or does the Gaffer have a Gammer already?) (Just to fill you in, because you're a bit new, Eärniel is very fond of frogs!) Which reminds me - how's your practical going, Eärniel? Is it still about frogs?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-04-2003, 01:16 AM | #2158 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this issue, GrayMouser. It seems to me that you see the logical problem that I do, and I'm certainly having a hard enough time getting my thoughts on the subject across - maybe you can express it better.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 11-04-2003 at 01:17 AM. |
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11-04-2003, 01:29 AM | #2159 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
2. I think YOU are missing the big picture here I think it is entirely false that we are living machines. Do machines appreciate beauty? Do machines create art? Do machines have a sense of humor? It appears that you are placing humans in among the other animals. My answer is that I'll believe that you believe that ... when you tell me you'd hit the human with the car just as easily as the rabbit 3. Since the only morality you appear to recognize is the value of passing on your genes (to which I say why bother if we're only machines? I'd rather be dead! ) I still say why is it even good that we survive? Why do we even have the idea that it is GOOD to survive? Note the moral judgements here - in YOUR set-up, it would be equally "good" to NOT survive, because there is no morality involved in the choice of a machine. A machine can be programmed to make good survival choices, but only by a PROGRAMMER that KNOWS that it's GOOD to survive. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-04-2003, 01:37 AM | #2160 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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BTW, IRex, you are a splendidly joyful contradiction to your claim to be a living machine every time you make one of your wonderfully funny posts.
Woo hoo!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 11-04-2003 at 01:40 AM. |
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