Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Draken]

I'm a Frisbeetarian. We hold that upon death the soul ascends towards heaven, but gets stuck on the roof.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Draken
I'm a Frisbeetarian. We hold that upon death the soul ascends towards heaven, but gets stuck on the roof.

thats if "Dog" doesnt get ahold of it first and punch little teeth holes in it.

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

I guess I was looking for something bigger, since many people remain in the Catholic Church while rejecting much more of Church teaching than that.

A few years ago... ah crap, over 12 years ago!... I would have disagreed with this. Recently, however, I’ve had the privilege to help research for a book about the social and philosophical attitudes of American Catholics. We interviewed dozens of practicing and fallen away Catholics and I was astounded by the amount of dissent that we found. Seemingly faithful, every Sunday morning, pray the rosary Catholics possessed a pedestrian understanding of the Church and the sacraments, rejected ontological reality, and held deist moral opinions. I was floored by the fact that only three people out of nearly forty individuals were in theoretical agreement with Humane Vitae, and a handful even denied the divinity of Christ and the existence of the Trinity. Dissent, though, isn’t really a good word. Ignorance or intellectual victimization are closer to the mark. The Catholic Church isn’t getting her message out... not even to her own.

We did manage to find some positive things as well. However, there is definitely a need to reform catechesis, and really the only way to effect the kind of reform that is needed in education is to reform the very way Catholics presently live their faith in the modern world.

--Dave

[GrayMouser]

"I was floored by the fact that only three people out of nearly forty individuals were in theoretical agreement with Humane Vitae"

Are you referring to attitudes toward birth control here? Did you find that Catholics didn't know why the Church was opposed to it, or that they simply disagreed?

And do you think a better job of "getting the message out" would lead to any change in practice?

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

Almost everyone that disagreed with the Church’s teaching regarding sexuality were aware that the Church was opposed to artificial methods of contraception, but couldn’t say why. If I remember correctly there was at least one practicing Catholic that honestly thought that the Church taught that sex was bad, which, of course is not the case. Most, though, were simply unaware of the Church’s understanding of human sexuality and how this understanding can not allow for the moral practice of artificial contraception. For example, one person said that Church wanted her to be a “baby machine.� (While the Catholic Church insists that human sexuality can not be understood apart from procreation, the Church does not teach that procreation is the only purpose of human sexuality.) Almost everyone that disagreed with the Church’s teaching about sexuality stated something to the effect that whatever happened in their bedrooms was their business, and their business only. A strange position for a Christian to take, given the Christian believes in a God who governs all of reality and cares about his creatures right down to a single strand of hair.

And do you think a better job of "getting the message out" would lead to any change in practice?

Personally, I think that practice has to come first, not just from the clergy, but primarily from Catholic lay people. It is by practice that the Church has to get its message out there, not by learned theological discourse, websites, Papal Encyclicals, or homilies. Take for example the success of many Evangelical churches. They are successful, not because they publish a bunch of books or advertise in newspapers, but because the members of these churches get out there and pound the pavement. Now, I’m not saying that Catholics should go door to door, but the Catholic Church could learn something about this grass roots kind of method. I am saying that Catholic doctrine means nothing if its just preached from a pulpit one day out of the week. Catholics really have to start taking their faith seriously by living in visible, not just notional, Catholic communities. Catholics have to build communities of mutual support and dependence (as Cardinal Ratzinger wrote about), where they not only share Sunday Mass together, but all the facets of their daily prayer and social lives. That will take some work, but I think its worth a try. Catholic parishes could actually become a visible alternative to the general social existence of American life, just like the first Christian communities were a visible alternative to the general social existence in the Roman Empire.

Anyway, that’s my opinion, and I hope to be in a position soon that will enable me to put some of my thoughts into practice.

--Dave

[hectorberlioz]

The other day I looked back a couple of pages and realized that I had posted my original post in this thread for a certain personage that had posted "jesus was gay" posts a couple of pages back, I was hoping he would read mine.
Also I apoligize for any rudeness of mine in the Discussion that folowed my original post

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Guillaume le Maréchal



Personally, I think that practice has to come first, not just from the clergy, but primarily from Catholic lay people.

--Dave

Actually I was specifically referring to the issue of artificial contraception, so I certainly wouldn't expect changes in practice to come from the clergy

I'm not a Catholic, but I can't see any possibility of getting most Catholics in developed countries to stop using artificial contraception- it's simply too important an issue in people's lives for them to surrender their ability to choose when to have children.

Note I'm not addressing the issue of whether it's right or wrong- just that as a practical matter it's a lost battle.

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

I'm not a Catholic, but I can't see any possibility of getting most Catholics in developed countries to stop using artificial contraception- it's simply too important an issue in people's lives for them to surrender their ability to choose when to have children.

What is surprising is that there is a safer, more affective, and far more practical, means of regulating child birth. This alternative, of course, is natural family planning, and the opinion that it doesn’t work is an uninformed fiction. I wouldn’t speak about this at all if I didn’t have first hand experience with this method, as well as artificial means of birth control that not only did not work, but endangered my wife’s health. In fact NFP works just as well to get pregnant than it does to prevent pregnancy. The main reason why people are adamantly against NFP is that it requires a degree of discipline that many people simply can’t imagine. I know because I thought the same way. However, it is amazing that over the five years my wife and I have practiced NFP how strong our relationship has grown and how romantic our marriage has remained.

On the other hand, NFP is somewhat complex, and initial instruction should come from clinical professionals. My wife and I attended classes taught by a physician, which in my opinion is the only way to go, but this cost us some money and required a long drive for each class. The availability of the courses is at times beyond the means of the typical Catholic parishioner. I’m constantly frustrated by the lack of support at the parish level for instituting NFP instruction, especially given the Church’s stance on human sexuality and the physical and spiritual benefits that NFP has for married couples. Once again I think this is a failure of Catholic faith communities, and the blame rest squarely on lay people.

Regards,
--Dave

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Guillaume le Maréchal
What is surprising is that there is a safer, more affective, and far more practical, means of regulating child birth. This alternative, of course, is natural family planning, and the opinion that it doesn’t work is an uninformed fiction. I wouldn’t speak about this at all if I didn’t have first hand experience with this method, as well as artificial means of birth control that not only did not work, but endangered my wife’s health. In fact NFP works just as well to get pregnant than it does to prevent pregnancy. The main reason why people are adamantly against NFP is that it requires a degree of discipline that many people simply can’t imagine. I know because I thought the same way. However, it is amazing that over the five years my wife and I have practiced NFP how strong our relationship has grown and how romantic our marriage has remained.

On the other hand, NFP is somewhat complex, and initial instruction should come from clinical professionals. My wife and I attended classes taught by a physician, which in my opinion is the only way to go, but this cost us some money and required a long drive for each class. The availability of the courses is at times beyond the means of the typical Catholic parishioner. I’m constantly frustrated by the lack of support at the parish level for instituting NFP instruction, especially given the Church’s stance on human sexuality and the physical and spiritual benefits that NFP has for married couples. Once again I think this is a failure of Catholic faith communities, and the blame rest squarely on lay people.

Regards,
--Dave

wow! I finally met another person who uses NFP! when I was going through my pre marriage counseling a few months ago, we had to take a class on NFP...Of course I also got a book on it which explains it in more detail. I just got married 2 weeks ago and I'm trying to use it but it does take some discipline like you said , but my marriage is worth it!

Yes I agree that the Church needs to talk more about NFP and encourage people to use it...maybe this way the divorce rate will go down somewhat as it is a marriage builder

[Rían]

Congratulations, Arien! Nice to see you back And how is Feanaro?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Congratulations, Arien! Nice to see you back And how is Feanaro?

thanks! it's nice to be back! Feanaro is doing well...he's exercising right now!

[Rían]

*restrains herself from making a comment*

[Lief Erikson]

When's the last time I've heard that? (looks innocent)

[Insidious Rex]

honestly you christians! all this sex talk. theres children about! and virgin atheists! whats the world coming to...

[Arien the Maia]

hahaha you guys!
He really WAS exercising on our new treadmil (the Gazelle)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
When's the last time I've heard that? (looks innocent)

What, are you saying I talk too much?

*looks at her post count*

Um, nevermind ...

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
honestly you christians! all this sex talk. theres children about!

Perhaps the two are related ....

[Rían]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
hahaha you guys!
He really WAS exercising on our new treadmil (the Gazelle)

No, no, Arien - don't you think you should name it Nahar or Rochallor or Snowmane or something along those lines?

[Brill]

May I just say...LOL!

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
No, no, Arien - don't you think you should name it Nahar or Rochallor or Snowmane or something along those lines?

oooh Nahar is good! that's what I'll call it from now on!