Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Rían]

Originally posted by Cirdan
We don't need to rearrange the universe to change the world of human existence externally of christianity.

I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're saying ... could you please reword it for me?

Religions tend to divide the world a raise barriers to human relations. Some can see the true commonality and use religion as a basis of shared ideals but the masses move the opposite way, and the hate mongers find it a very useful tool.

Good thing Christianity isn't a religion! (at least in the sense that you're using it). It IS a true statement of the state of things, and the problems that humanity has, and the solution that God has provided, and a record of God's great love for us, and a statement about His holy and righteous character.

*Insert the song Imagine here*

And that's what I'm talking about when I say Christianity deals with reality. Imagine may be a very pretty song, but it's powerless to make any real changes. Real Christianity makes REAL changes for the permanent good.

Christianity is like democracy. It's the worst religion except all the rest. Neither is likely to provide a global solution to the world's (human) problems.

I disagree (obviously ) - Christianity correctly identifies the real problem, and provides a solution. The main trouble is we don't like the solution, because the main thing it involves is admitting we're not God...

We could change the world, and make it better than we found it, but we were doomed from the moment we were able the manipulate our environment, to destroy it.

Absolutely!!! That is right in line with Christian doctrine!! But it doesn't stop there ... the amazing news is that when we CHOOSE to admit we're not God, and admit our right and good need of our Creator, then we DO have God's power in us to overcome evil. And we find our true and intended and highest and best joy.



That's what's so wonderful about Christianity: it deals with REALITY - in all its strength and oftentimes ugliness. It's REAL - it's not a hopeful little ditty about something that will never happen. It's as gentle as a mother with a newborn, yet as tough as the nails that Christ submitted to have driven thru His hands (remember, he had hosts of angels at His call, and even His word in the Garden of Gethsemene had the power to literally knock people off their feet!)

It's as simple as the Golden Rule, but as complicated as having to die to yourself that you might have life in full.

It's Jesus loving people so much that he comes down to earth to be among us and to bear the well-deserved penalty of our sins. I love how in the book of Hebrews how it says that we don't have a distant and remote God, but one who lived among us and KNOWS, really KNOWS what it's like to suffer and to be tempted ... yet He was without sin.

It's beautiful how God reconciles His perfect and right holiness and justness with the stunning depth of His love for us - He Himself took on the responsibility of the consequences of creating people with free will by Jesus' substitutionary death on the cross.

Read thru Isaiah and Jeremiah - why is God grieved? why is there suffering? He longs for us to do right, and ... we don't. And it is a crime against the very universe and everyone in it to ignore wrongdoing. We as imperfect people have an abhorrance of major evils such as murder. And it is RIGHT to have this abhorrance. And a perfect and holy God is RIGHT - is RIGHT! - to abhor ALL evil. And again, He doesn't leave us, but provides the way of salvation for all who will choose to accept it. But again, this involves admitting, for one thing, that we are NOT God and can't make the universe how we would like it. And that price is too high to pay for many people.

[Rían]

Well, I've blabbed enough for a bit I'd like to hear from other people how suffering fits into THEIR worldview. I'll be leaving for a weekend getaway tomorrow morning, so it's a good time to ask others to share their views for a bit, then I'll enjoy reading them when I get back. Could you please explain the origin of suffering, solutions to suffering, what it means, possible purposes to suffering, what your worldview says about relieving suffering and why, and things like that.

Also, any comments on what I've written are always welcome.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Well, I've blabbed enough for a bit I'd like to hear from other people how suffering fits into THEIR worldview. I'll be leaving for a weekend getaway tomorrow morning, so it's a good time to ask others to share their views for a bit, then I'll enjoy reading them when I get back. Could you please explain the origin of suffering, solutions to suffering, what it means, possible purposes to suffering, what your worldview says about relieving suffering and why, and things like that.

Also, any comments on what I've written are always welcome.

I agree with you. Suffering exists because we, the children of God, choose to not follow the plan He has for us. We are going against the natural order of things by doing this so obviously there won't be harmony in our lives because our lives won't be in harmony with His (our Creator).

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I agree with you. Suffering exists because we, the children of God, choose to not follow the plan He has for us. We are going against the natural order of things by doing this so obviously there won't be harmony in our lives because our lives won't be in harmony with His (our Creator).

so then those extraordinarily devout people who are totally in line with gods plan and follow the laws of the bible to the letter never suffer?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
so then those extraordinarily devout people who are totally in line with gods plan and follow the laws of the bible to the letter never suffer?

Well, if you're taking about people like Job and possibly the Virgin Mary, then I would say that the suffering they experienced is because we live and they lived in a world that is marred and full of sin. Since Adam and Eve sinned against God, this world has been home to suffering and toil...therefore everyone who is bound to it must suffer as well. Look at Jesus...He took on human form and suffered greatly on the cross. Sin is the cause. In my opinion, even if everyone in the whole world would follow God's law there would still most likely be suffering b/c of Adam and Eve and their Fall from Grace which doomed us all to death. Sin and it's effects will always be present in this world until the world ends.

[Cirdan]

Well, that seems fair.

So I guess I got cancer at 5 months old cuz I messed my didy. Filthy little sinner I was.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Cirdan
Well, that seems fair.

So I guess I got cancer at 5 months old cuz I messed my didy. Filthy little sinner I was.

what I'm saying is that suffering exists and that we are ALL vulnerable to it whether we are just babies or 85 years old. It isn't our fault but we have to live with it. We can try to make the best of it, but suffereing will always be here b/c sin will always be here.

[Rían]

I still don't see any explanations for suffering from the non-Christian team - could you guys please post some thoughts on your views, with attention to the points I asked about?

And re those "extraordinarily devout people" that IRex asked about - read the book of James in the Bible for some thoughts on that. I can't really quote now, I'm heading off for a weekend away with some friends - but basically, the phrase is "WHEN you suffer ....", not "IF". Christians are certainly not exempt from suffering, but God turns it to good results, and the suffering is temporary. (Perhaps Arien could help me out with a quote from James chpt 1 on "count it all joy", etc. James is a great book on suffering)

See you guys Sunday nite or Monday I'd really appreciate your thoughts on suffering, esp. GrayMouser, IRex, Sheeana and Cirdan. Also Ruinel and Hobbit, altho they haven't posted a lot lately.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Well, I've blabbed enough for a bit I'd like to hear from other people how suffering fits into THEIR worldview. I'll be leaving for a weekend getaway tomorrow morning, so it's a good time to ask others to share their views for a bit, then I'll enjoy reading them when I get back. Could you please explain the origin of suffering, solutions to suffering, what it means, possible purposes to suffering, what your worldview says about relieving suffering and why, and things like that.

Also, any comments on what I've written are always welcome.

Origins of suffering: the Universe is as it is, and does not conform to our desires.

On the level of human as opposed to natural evil , having evolved as social animals, we exist between the poles of our desire to survive and our instinct to co-operate and help one another.

Purpose to suffering: none

Solutions to suffering: use our human intelligence and what moral feelings we have to make the world a little better.

[Rían]

I just popped on for a sec and saw GM's post -

um, could you perhaps expand a bit? I'd really like to hear some of your thoughts behind your conclusions, and the ramifications of your conclusions - IOW, how should this affect our daily life, etc.

Off to pack!

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Perhaps Arien could help me out with a quote from James chpt 1 on "count it all joy", etc. James is a great book on suffering)

I'll try but I'm getting married next week so it's gonna be hard for me to balance everything! heheh

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I'd really appreciate your thoughts on suffering, esp. GrayMouser, IRex, Sheeana and Cirdan. Also Ruinel and Hobbit, altho they haven't posted a lot lately.

well im not totally sure what you mean by an explanation for suffering. I think what GrayMouser said above pretty much follows along with what i think. But if you want to get literal:

Suffering is the result of the chaotic nature of the universe. we basically prefer to have things in a way that the universe doesn’t operate. The universe likes things to degrade and transform into more stable forms. We like nice new houses without leaky roofs or peeling paint. We like cars that don’t break down when you really need them. We like being healthy and strong and cancer free all our long lives. We hate it when the moot has a problem and goes offline…. So basically we spend our entire existence fighting against entropy . And this is the basic cause of suffering on a human level. Disease. Starvation. Apathy. Cruelty. Death. These tend to all be lower order states then happiness and accomplishment and working infrastructure and good health. So that’s yer suffering in a nut shell.

[Cirdan]

There is no purpose to suffering. Pain is just the adaptation to tell us what things to avoid if possible. Suffering is just the unpleasant by-product; the state of not being able to avoid it.

Thinking it makes us closer to god or something is why there are/have been flagellates. "Beat me, whip me, I see god."

Best wishes & a life of happiness with regards to your wedding and marriage, Arien.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Cirdan

Best wishes & a life of happiness with regards to your wedding and marriage, Arien.

thank you much

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I'll try but I'm getting married next week so it's gonna be hard for me to balance everything! heheh

Where are your priorities?

Just kidding, many congratulations and felicitations!

A favourite passage, not actually about marriage, but sometimes used as wedding vows:

Ruth 1:16

And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:

[GrayMouser]

Note: in some versions has the additional phrase, "and thy football team, my football team", but the authenticity has been disputed.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
[B
9. Compared to the joys of heaven, the suffering here on earth is nothing - the Bible says there are no tears in heaven, and the whole Christian faith is just filled with joy, and there can be joy even in the midst of suffering (not happiness, but joy) because we know heaven is for eternity, and suffering is allowed thru the hand of a loving God. And suffering is a hard teacher that points out our sinful condition ... so that we may be saved from it.

10. There is no other worldview that makes as much sense as suffering than Christianity, IMO. And there is no other worldview that says as strongly that we must help relieve the suffering that we see. I welcome differing opinions and would like to discuss them.

So basically, Christianity is very realistic - it deals with reality and has an explanation and a solution, both temporary and permanant, for the suffering we see in the world. It's no good to wish that the world were different - the world is the way it is. What are we going to do with this fact? Wishful thinking is a waste of time. [/B]

Point 9; and of course, compared with the eternal suffering of Hell, the joys here on earth are as nothing.

Point 10: How so? My non-religious viewpoint is that suffering is in itself pointless (not pain; pain tells you to avoid damage); it may sometimes be necessary to reach a goal, but there is nothing intrinsically good about it.

I don't see how Christianity is any better than any other religion at explaining sufering or telling people why they should relieve it.

"Wishful thinking is a waste of time"- exactly, that's why we should forget about religion (including Christianity- "if it looks like a duck...") and deal with things here on Earth.

Ms. Tobela, 34, slim and quick to smile — and now to cry — is the first in her family to graduate from elementary school, high school or college. Two years ago, she was at the top of her world, preparing to graduate from the university, have her second child and join the middle class.

Now she is another African widow, poor, dying and heartbroken because she cannot protect her children from the same fate. She is but one of 30 million Africans with H.I.V./AIDS (24 will die of it while you're reading this column), but her tale underscores how H.I.V. in Africa is not just a virus but also a self-replicating cycle of AIDS, poverty and hopelessness.

Ms. Tobela's world began to collapse when her husband, Simon, an electrician, was found to have AIDS. Then she tested positive for H.I.V., apparently after getting it from him. And her newborn son, Victor, turned out to have caught the virus from her.

Her husband died last year, and she is now too sick to hold a job. She survives on $22.50 a month in government child support and spends her time wondering about who should raise Victor after her death.

"I think maybe if I die first, before him, then maybe my mother can take Victor," she says, her voice catching.

Ms. Tobela seems typical of Africa's AIDS victims. In Africa, 58 percent of H.I.V. carriers are female, and among teenagers with H.I.V., more than 75 percent are girls. This is largely because of an explosion in quasi prostitution between young girls and older men.

"It's not just promiscuity," said Blanche Pitt, director of the South Africa office of the African Medical and Research Foundation. "It's poverty. It's desperation."

As young women become infected, so do their babies. One-fifth of pregnant women in southern Africa have H.I.V., and worldwide, 800,000 babies a year get H.I.V. from their mothers.

From Rian

We cannot arrange the universe to our liking, as we did not create it. And if we could, it would either (1) not be feasible, and/or (2) not be as good as God made it .

(1) A world without AIDS would certainly be feasible; we lived in one throughout recorded history up to twenty years ago.

(2) Explain again to me how a world where Ms. Tobela and her child did NOT get AIDS would be "not as good as God made it".
As far as I can follow, you're saying it is better that they die in pain and misery.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Where are your priorities?

Just kidding, many congratulations and felicitations!

A favourite passage, not actually about marriage, but sometimes used as wedding vows:

Ruth 1:16

yes, that is a beautiful scripural passage. I think our readings are from Genesis, !st Corinthians...the passage that tells you what love is, and I forget what the Gospel reading is...I don't have my wedding book with me..shame shame shame!!!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

"I tend to be rather irked when I hear people dealing out Hell or Heaven-judgement on others.
If you want to believe in a god, then leave judgments on such things to him. Because since
we're all sinners here, what gives us the right to judge in these things when we can never
know all the factors involved?"

Two words: Divine Revelation.

"Well, I disagree - I think the oldest branch was a group of non-denominational Jews
(in the sense of Jewish race) that were good friends of Jesus."

Let me guess; does this mean you're non-denominational? But seriously, I do agree with you...BUT I believe that those Jews were the stones upon which the New Jerusalem is founded (as Revelation depicts with the New Jerusalem founded on the stones of the Apostles). The reason it's called "Apostolic succession" is because it is the successors of the Apostles.

"The Christian religion derived from the Jewish religion [after the death of Christ and the resurection, of course]."

I completely agree; however, I would point out that in many churches, the Christianity practiced has virtually no resemblance to the Jewish faith; at any rate the Orthodox Jews, which is what the Jewish faith was up until a few hundred years ago, I believe. I would also point out that the Catholic Church is pretty well undeniably the only form of Christianity that was around from the time of Constantine (I think c. 325 AD) for around a thousand years; there are documents much older (some from the first century) which indicate a worldview and beliefs which are very, very Catholic.

"well yer in the right thread if you have questions."

Almost, but not quite. This thread is for religious debate, I believe; there is a separate thread called the "Religious Knowledge Thread", started (by me ) for the purpose of learning more of other faiths. Also, in response to Silme's question, I believe (though I don't know), that the Lutherans are really the Protestant denomination that is closest to the Catholic Church; they hold very similar views on many matters.

"right...the Roman Catholic Church is just the Western rite of the entire Catholic Church under the Pope. There are about 22 different Eastern rites...they are extremly similar to the Orthadox church only that they except the Pope as the head of the Church."

I don't really know, but would I be correct to guess that they also adhere to the Catholic (Rather than Orthodox) teaching of clergy; celibacy for all priests, that is?

"There's also a version, the Jerusalem Bible, done by Catholic scholars and approved by the Vatican, which goes back to the original Hebrew and Greek- the Book of Job was translated by none other than Professor JRR Tolkien"

Which is why it's my favourite Bible. Tolkien rocks!

"What we usually say about salvation of people of other religions is that they must live as it's say in their religions. So a jewish or a muslim cannot salvate if they don't follow "the rules" of their own religion, and fall into living as if God doesn't exist (ie, making Gods of themselves)."

Don't the documents of Vatican II say that Christ is necessary for the salvation of all men? My view (without real knowledge of the Church's teachings, excluding on the Jewish faith), is that salvation can be achieved by Jews and Muslims as well, if they follow the path of God; for they worship the same God, even if they don't view him the same way. I believe that the "Big Three" can all lead to salvation, though the covenant of Christ I believe to be God's true plan and ultimate hope for all mankind. Also, of course, I believe that pagans, if they cannot learn of God through no fault of their own (i. e. the unevangelized) can find God, if they seek him "with all their minds, with all their hearts, and with all their souls."; I find it hard to believe that God condemns people because they have no chance to hear the Gospel.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

"I suppose the whole belief in Purgatory is rooted in the Scrpitural saying that "all sin is bad but not all sin causes death."

Also the burning of the wood, hay, and stubble, and Scripture's reference to God as an all-consuming fire; it can also be attributed to the fact that the Catholic Church seems to consider the dead less separated from the living than do the Protestants; it is a continuation, rather than of a chance of salvation, of the "refining fire", removing the flaws to cayse the silver to truly shine. Also, Christ said that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in this world OR THE NEXT. Revleation also tells us that "no unclean thing" will enter heaven, which I would think indicates a post-death purification.

"When we ascend to heaven and come into God's presence, the earthly nature will be blown away forever."

Or "burned".


"My friend (i don't know what her religion is) keeps blabering on about how I am going to hell because I sined, (I can't change her mind telling her that since I ask god to forgive me of my sins I am redeemed) and she and her family are going to heaven because they are perfect. It can get really annoying!"

I bet! I would recommend that you ask about her religion; if she is a Christian, tell her that the covenant instituted by Christ's sacrifice is completely centered on the forgiveness of sins. You might also want to find some relevant verses to share, if she's Christian. To be prefectly honest, it sounds to me like a case of someone by Christians (or at least people to go to a Christian church) who doesn't know the first thing about Christianity.

"Christianity is like democracy. It's the worst religion except all the rest."

Oh come on! Surely an atheist can think of a better religion?

"so then those extraordinarily devout people who are totally in line with gods plan and follow the laws of the bible to the letter never suffer?"

I would say that there are none; not alive today, at any rate. But, if there WERE, I would say that sin and suffering are like an infectious disease; they can spread easily around. Our actions have consequences, sometimes bad ones; and sometimes, these bad consequences affect other people, as well. But all of mankind is subject to suffering, because our father Adam (whom I believe was the best suited of all mankind to resist temptation) failed God, as have we all. If you're interested in some reading on the subject, I would recommend finding a Catechism of the Catholic Church online; parts 385-412 deal with the matter of the Fall; some excellent insight.

Rian: The verse is James 1:2; "My brothers, you will always have trails, but, when they come, try to treat them as a happy privilege; (3) you understand that your faith is only put to the test to make you patient, (4) byt patience too is to have its practical results sos that you will become full-developed, complete, with nothing missing." (Jerusalem Bible )