Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Meanwhile, there is also debate among Christians as to whether or not death is the end of all chance to come to know Christ. Catholics don't believe so, as they believe in Purgatory. I think most Evangelicals believe that our choices in this life determine absolutely our future eternally. There isn't any Biblical evidence either way, that I know of, which tells us absolutely what happens to people.

Cathollics too believe that our choices here dtermine absolutely where you go when you die. Those people in Purgatory are on their way to Heaven. Once the world ends and Jesus comes back, then Purgatory wil cease to exist. it is a temporary place. I suppose the whole belief in Purgatory is rooted in the Scrpitural saying that "all sin is bad but not all sin causes death". Meaning there are degrees of sin.

[Silme*Christian]

Why do some religions think that if you live a life of no sin then [and only then] will you go to heaven? Nobody lives a life of no sin, everyone sins.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
Why do some religions think that if you live a life of no sin then [and only then] will you go to heaven? Nobody lives a life of no sin, everyone sins.

I'm not sure what religion you mean. I know a lot of religions have some emphasis upon morality, and upon getting to heaven through good works. I don't know about perfection.

Christ's nature coming into someone transforms them. It is written of by Paul as being a war between the flesh and its desires and the spiritual nature of Christ in us. When we ascend to heaven and come into God's presence, the earthly nature will be blown away forever.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
Why do some religions think that if you live a life of no sin then [and only then] will you go to heaven? Nobody lives a life of no sin, everyone sins.

That's why Jesus told his disciples to forgive sins in His name. He knows that everyone sins or will sin sometime in the course of their lives.

[Silme*Christian]

My friend (i don't know what her religion is) keeps blabering on about how I am going to hell because I sined, (I can't change her mind telling her that since I ask god to forgive me of my sins I am redeemed) and she and her family are going to heaven because they are perfect. It can get really annoying!

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
My friend (i don't know what her religion is) keeps blabering on about how I am going to hell because I sined, (I can't change her mind telling her that since I ask god to forgive me of my sins I am redeemed) and she and her family are going to heaven because they are perfect. It can get really annoying!

yes, people who have that kind of additude or belief system can get annoying

[Sheeana]

I read this somewhere, and I really liked it, so I thought I'd post it here:

I met Jesus walking down the street

“It’s you!� I gasped, “Son of God!�

“I am a man,� said he with a smile.



I met Jesus in the ladies’ room

“You? Here?� I shrieked.

“I am a woman,� said he with a wink.



I met Jesus on the swings

I said nothing, only stared

“I am a child,� said he with a laugh.



I met Jesus in my kitchen

“I am blessed,� I marveled, “What does this mean?�

“How silly!� he said to me, “I am you!�

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
God's hand transformed the place, and after that march years passed before any murders occurred inside Bellavista. People's lives were utterly transformed, and they went from being the most evil of people imaginable to people full of goodness and kindness. God's nature had come into them, and they were forgiven of their sins.

Either that or the missionary lived long enough to explain that they we all about to be machine gunned into itty bitty pieces. It's quite a story of bravery but I hardly think the crimnals would now make good folks to have move in next door. Saved? from hell and an excruciating death. It's a two-fer.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Cirdan
Either that or the missionary lived long enough to explain that they we all about to be machine gunned into itty bitty pieces. It's quite a story of bravery but I hardly think the crimnals would now make good folks to have move in next door. Saved? from hell and an excruciating death. It's a two-fer.

I could argue it, but is there any point?


Here are two more events that happened, in completely different places.

People hated what a missionary was saying. They tied him to a chair and put TNT under it. The Christian began singing. They detonated the dynamite, and he was still singing, afterward. He was unharmed.


Then there was a man involved in hiding Bibles from authorities. The authorities decided to torture him to death, so they placed him on a pile of boxes with a noose around his neck. He was about seventy or so years old, if I recall correctly. There were two guards watching him. He started preaching the word to them, but they laughed at him.

He stood there for several days and nights, without rest, food or water. Finally, in the middle of a thunder storm, he fell off the pile of boxes. Instantly a lightning bolt fell and split the rope, so that he went unharmed.


But lives can be changed. The life that is transformed by Christ is probably the greatest miracle.

[Cirdan]

How about that guy in Poland that survived his parachute not opening.

I've tried to find Christ but what can I say, I'm an episcopalian.

But seriously, I agree you're right about the positive effects spiritual awakenings for many. Personally I just like the cultural memes. I like the way I feel when I go to church. My blind faith thingy is broken so I can't beleive the whole mythology, but the lessons are nice.... and the music (most of the time)... and that candle smell... and we get homemade bread for communion. weee!!!

[GrayMouser]

And then there was the teenage couple in the car who heard on the radio about this psycho killer with a metal hook for a hand who escaped from an asylum, and the teenage boy wanted to make out but the girl said no, and when they got home the hook was hanging from the doorhandle of the car!

Just think if the girl had given into temptation instead of staying pure....

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sheeana
I read this somewhere, and I really liked it, so I thought I'd post it here:

What does it mean to you? Why do you like it? (if you don't mind sharing)

[Rían]

long post warning - I feel one coming on ... I think I'll be able to post a summary statement on suffering in about *checks watch* t h r e e h o u r s - you have all been warned...

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
And then there was the teenage couple in the car who heard on the radio about this psycho killer with a metal hook for a hand who escaped from an asylum, and the teenage boy wanted to make out but the girl said no, and when they got home the hook was hanging from the doorhandle of the car!

yeah and did you hear the one about Mickey from the life cereal ads?? god killed him with pop rocks!!

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Just think if the girl had given into temptation instead of staying pure....

yes... yes... then what ];-)

[Sheeana]

It would involve broccoli, of course.

Dirty old man.

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
What does it mean to you? Why do you like it? (if you don't mind sharing)

I like that it portrays tolerance, and I like the slight irreverence, and that it's ambiguous (i.e. a christian can read it and see that Jesus is within everyone "feel the love, man", and an atheist can read it, and see Jesus as a construct.)

[Rían]

*gets mind off of broccoli and on to suffering*

Trying again to summarize what I think is the Christian position on suffering: *decides to NOT answer the phone!*

1. God is eternal, all-powerful, all-knowing, holy, righteous, loving, and there is no evil at all in Him.

2. God created the universe, and declared it good.

3. God created man and woman, and declared them VERY good.

4. God created man and woman uniquely - they are the only beings that are created in God's image. And one aspect of this is that they have a large degree (but not an unlimited degree) of free will.

5. People are NOT, however, God; nor will they ever be God, nor are they capable of being God. God is unique, and His created beings (people) can never be greater than their Creator. This is a logical viewpoint - think about it, it makes sense.

6. People have, by the misuse of their free will, been the cause, both directly and indirectly, of the huge amount of suffering present in the world. Unless God were to have created people without free will, this possibility is inevitable, and sadly, it HAS happened.

7. The love of a robot is worthless. Compelled love is meaningless. God created us out of His love and for His love, and this is very good, but it necessitates our having free will.

8. As the quote said, God would not have created us with this free will unless He knew in advance what He would do to triumph over the suffering that would be one of the results of our sin. And from the beginning, it is clear that God had a plan for our redemption. And that plan is that Jesus would bear the penalty of sin, for everyone that chooses to accept Him.

9. Compared to the joys of heaven, the suffering here on earth is nothing - the Bible says there are no tears in heaven, and the whole Christian faith is just filled with joy, and there can be joy even in the midst of suffering (not happiness, but joy) because we know heaven is for eternity, and suffering is allowed thru the hand of a loving God. And suffering is a hard teacher that points out our sinful condition ... so that we may be saved from it.

10. There is no other worldview that makes as much sense as suffering than Christianity, IMO. And there is no other worldview that says as strongly that we must help relieve the suffering that we see. I welcome differing opinions and would like to discuss them.

So basically, Christianity is very realistic - it deals with reality and has an explanation and a solution, both temporary and permanant, for the suffering we see in the world. It's no good to wish that the world were different - the world is the way it is. What are we going to do with this fact? Wishful thinking is a waste of time. We cannot arrange the universe to our liking, as we did not create it. And if we could, it would either (1) not be feasible, and/or (2) not be as good as God made it .

[Rían]

And I just saw Sheeana's reply, but I have to run pick up the kids from school, then root for my oldest son's football team (Rah! Rah!). Out of time again

I have so much more to say on the topic of suffering, but I just wanted to try to post a bare-bones outline of the Christian position.

[Cirdan]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RÃ*an
[B]9. Compared to the joys of heaven, the suffering here on earth is nothing - the Bible says there are no tears in heaven, and the whole Christian faith is just filled with joy, and there can be joy even in the midst of suffering (not happiness, but joy) because we know heaven is for eternity, and suffering is allowed thru the hand of a loving God. And suffering is a hard teacher that points out our sinful condition ... so that we may be saved from it.

This means the central theme of christian salvation, that Christ suffered for our sins, is nor meaningful because his suffering was "nothing". My suffering (the majority of it)is the direct result of defective design. I've suffered more than christ and will die just the same. An eternity of pleasure will not justify shoddy workmanship.

So basically, Christianity is very realistic - it deals with reality and has an explanation and a solution, both temporary and permanant, for the suffering we see in the world. It's no good to wish that the world were different - the world is the way it is. What are we going to do with this fact? Wishful thinking is a waste of time. We cannot arrange the universe to our liking, as we did not create it. And if we could, it would either (1) not be feasible, and/or (2) not be as good as God made it .

We don't need to rearrange the universe to change the world of human existence externally of christianity. Religions tend to divide the world a raise barriers to human relations. Some can see the true commonality and use religion as a basis of shared ideals but the masses move the opposite way, and the hate mongers find it a very useful tool. *Insert the song Imagine here*

Christianity is like democracy. It's the worst religion except all the rest. Neither is likely to provide a global solution to the world's (human) problems. We could change the world, and make it better than we found it, but we were doomed from the moment we were able the manipulate our environment, to destroy it. Christianity helps keep people from giving up and just being totally selfish (with the self-destructive long-term consquences).