09-17-2003, 12:13 PM | #2001 | |||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 09-17-2003 at 12:14 PM. |
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09-17-2003, 12:44 PM | #2002 | ||||
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Whoops, just saw your post, GM - you posted while I was typing.
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That's why the correct view of God is so important in this subject. The Biblical view of God is that He is all-powerful, all-knowing, loving, holy, righteous, just, patient, etc. He created the universe, and is in rightful authority over it, whether or not people acknowledge it. And one day this will be revealed, but God is delaying the day on purpose, in His mercy, to give everyone every possible chance to come to Him. He has created us with the capacity for free will choice, but He will not rearrange the universe if we don't happen to like it! He created it; it's good; and that's the way it is. We are created beings with a large capacity for free will, and we often choose to go against God's perfect designs, and this is one of the biggest sources of suffering. Our choices affect others, whether we like it or not. And suffering is limited, and just as in Tolkien's writing, Iluvatar does a deeper good than Melkor can ever do a wrong, God allows suffering but works deeper goods in the suffering, if we choose to let Him do so by submitting to His authority. Again, the Bible says that the sufferings in this present life are considered to be nothing against the joy that will come in heaven. And EVERYONE has the free-will choice to accept God's authority and enter into heaven - the Bible is very clear that NO ONE will have a valid excuse for rejecting Him when the day comes and each person will enter their CHOSEN place in eternity. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 09-17-2003 at 12:46 PM. |
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09-17-2003, 01:03 PM | #2003 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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BTW, GMouser - you mentioned the book of Job in the Bible when talking about literature on suffering - do you remember how God answered Job when Job complained about his suffering? And do you remember Job's response to God's answer? Quite interesting...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-17-2003, 01:21 PM | #2004 | |
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09-17-2003, 02:27 PM | #2005 | ||||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-17-2003, 02:30 PM | #2006 | ||||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-17-2003, 08:23 PM | #2007 | |
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My point was, as I said, that both IRex and I can identify people for whom we think sex is not right (this is assuming that IRex objects to pedophiles having sex with little kids, which I imagine is a pretty safe assumption). So for many, if not all, pleasures, there are some groups of people that cannot participate in them. So should these pleasures be eliminated? I can't participate in the pleasures peculiar to being a man, because I'm a woman. Is that unfair? Should all men be eliminated because it makes me sad that I can't enjoy some of the pleasures of being a man? Or should I stop whinging about it and just enjoy the many pleasures of being a woman? I think that's what I'll do.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 09-17-2003 at 08:25 PM. |
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09-17-2003, 08:39 PM | #2008 | ||||
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And if we were honest with ourselves, I think we would have to admit that we've done some pretty rotten things ourselves - things that we would be ashamed to have come out into the daylight for others to see ... Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-18-2003, 01:46 AM | #2009 | |||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-18-2003, 03:50 AM | #2010 | |
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Jonathan Edwards, whose preaching in large part, sparked the "Great Awakening"; from his sermon
"Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" Quote:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/Ed...s_sinners.html They don't write them like that any more While it may be the Christian view that our children deserve to be born with diseases that will guarantee them short lives filled with agony, and that we deserve to have to watch them suffer this way; I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree that the instigator of this should be labelled "just" or "good". (And, BTW, doesn't that mean that the scientists working on a vaccine are opposing God's will by making the world safe for sinful sex again?) And what did God reply to Job? Basically, He didn't- He just said that it's His world and He can do whatever He likes- which may even be true, but it doesn't answer the question. I'll stick with Stendahl: "God's only excuse is that He doesn't exist"
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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09-19-2003, 03:48 AM | #2011 |
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Job
Here is the conclusion between the debate between God and Job.
"Then Job replied to the Lord: "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you will answer me.' My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." He said basically what I've been saying all along. God is wise, and we do not always know all of his purposes. We are mortal, he is incredible, and he is divine. It is foolish to put him in a box, and say "he can have no good purpose for such an event!" This statement is based upon our feeble and incredibly limited ability to view reality. Certainly those things we observe happening are evil! But this does not in any way mean that God has no right to let them happen, if he deems fit. Job said, "no plan of yours can be thwarted," and that God is a righteous God, even though, as he said in Chapter 27:2, God had denied him justice. Job acknowledged that God was God, and it was foolishness for him to state that God was wrong to do what he had done. He realized he was a mortal man, and acknowledged it. He knew that a mere man cannot with justice judge God. |
09-19-2003, 04:11 AM | #2012 | ||||||
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The spirit of the law was what was important. That's a big subject, though. Some of the things for people to do that were spoken of in the Bible were cultural, not universal. Some were important and symbolic of spiritual truths. For example, we still keep the Sabbath. Quote:
It shows caring and love, and personal interaction. It also is proof of his awesome power, if the atoms, if chance, if all things in his design are under his sway and running according to his plan. We are a part of that design, an important part. It truly is awesome, when you get a better picture of God's nature. Quote:
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I think you're imagining things a bit wrong, see. You, I believe, aren't imagining as strong a God as Christians believe in, or as loving a God, or as present a God. In short, I believe you're imagining a more human God who is very, very much less than the God Christians believe in . |
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09-19-2003, 04:25 PM | #2013 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-19-2003, 05:04 PM | #2014 | ||||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*pages thru Table of Contents* Well, I was right; "Jonathan Edwards" is NOT a book in the Bible so I don't mind saying that I think he did not present an accurate view of the whole picture, IMO (altho I don't recall the entire sermon). OK, just a small sample of verses from the Bible, working in order from Genesis to Revelation : (God made us, and declared it good.) Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 09-19-2003 at 05:45 PM. |
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09-19-2003, 05:51 PM | #2015 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And the pattern you see all throughout the Old Testament is God loving His people and longing for them, but having to send afflictions because they are choosing ways that He, as their Maker, knows will only bring death to them. There is never a "zap those jerks!" sense; only a "oh, my people.... oh, my people... I long for your return, for I love you, and your life and joy is in Me."
And now I need to go and pick up the kidlings from school - I'm sure I didn't word this as well as I could have wished, but perhaps I got a faint echo across. PS - and a question for while I'm gone - which of you have ever used phrases like "I wish [insert event] would happen!"; or "I hope [insert event] doesn't happen!" Just curious....
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-20-2003, 08:55 PM | #2016 | |
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There are some questions whose answer is not in the original "answer option" list in the mind of the asker. IOW, God's answer was NOT what Job expected, but when he got the answer, he realized that it was indeed an appropriate answer. You really gotta read Till We Have Faces - it addresses this point in a fascinating manner...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-21-2003, 06:03 AM | #2017 | |
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We are not things. |
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09-21-2003, 03:10 PM | #2018 |
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I have a question that I want everyone to answer. It is sort of off subject, and I apologize about that, dearly. My youth group is studying "women of the bible" and we are in the discussion of prostitutes. We all have to give/speek our minds about purity, to stay pure until marriage. I want your opinions about this subject too. Not only Christians can answer, Jew Catholics and ALL religions can answer as they wish.
My request is: no swearing, respectful words, please, and say what you feel (example: I think everyone should wait for that special someone to come along before they go ahead and do it, I have much [Christian] scripture to back my theory that if you DON'T wait then you are to be put into the eternal fire (HELL).) That is all, thank you.
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09-21-2003, 07:38 PM | #2019 | |
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As for your scripture references on the subject, I would also like to point out that one will end up in hell for gossiping, too (Romans 1:29). And that Jesus's harshest criticism was not for the prostitutes, whom he treated with respect (altho still pointing out their sin), but for the self-righteous Pharisees. I think that one must be careful when singling out a particular sin as sending a person to hell, when in fact ANY sin, combined with a person's refusal of God's gift of grace, will do the job . As Lief and I have said, the big point is that everyone sins ... and that God's free gift of salvation is offered to everyone. That said, I think that staying a virgin until your wedding night is a fabulous thing, and the best thing that you can do in that area, and in accordance with God's best for you. See the thread if you're interested in more detail
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 09-21-2003 at 07:46 PM. |
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09-21-2003, 08:10 PM | #2020 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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My point was going to be a bit different from what you concluded, tho. It was that we ALL say things like that, along with expressions of surprise and similar things that indicate that ... we are NOT God!. Because God doesn't ever have the need to talk like that And the more I think about the subject of suffering, the more I think that the answer boils down to a PERSON, not a mere explanation. And the person is God, and who He is. And I think that God might agree with my answer because that's how He answered Job... I was lying awake in bed last night, trying to think of examples of a person, and not a string of words, being the answer to a question. I thought of a few, but not any I was really happy with - can you guys think of some others? One was the question of "What was wrong with you, Sue, 8 months ago when I visited last? You seemed so tired, and you felt so sick!" The answer would be plain when Sue held up her newborn baby Also, a harried new teacher with her rowdy class of young children - they're getting out of their seats, talking when they're supposed to be quiet, throwing things - then all of a sudden they stop. The teacher's question would be "Why are they behaving so nicely all of a sudden?" and she would turn around and see the answer in a person - the strict principal just walked in the room. The answer is not only in who the person IS, but also what his authority is (the princiapl for that particular school). These are such rough examples of what I'm trying to express - but do you get my meaning?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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