Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
So then according to god gays aren’t allowed to appreciate stained glass?

Do you think pedophiles should be allowed to "appreciate the stained glass"? (IOW, have sex with young children) No? Well then, you put boundaries on sex, too, just like I do. We just happen to set different boundaries based on different standards and different authorities. (and don't say I'm saying homosexuals are the same as pedophiles, because I'm most emphatically NOT saying this; all I'm saying is that BOTH you and I have areas where we think sex is not appropriate, so my stained glass analogy where a certain subgroup of people are allowed to handle it is a valid one.)

So then republicans can buy their own choice of who they want to be god just cause they have the money and the residences of heaven are stupid enough to think its actually an ok idea?

You kinda lost me here - I wasn't making a comment on the Gray Davis situation, I was only making the point that some people seem to think that they're basically on the same level with God, and God only happens to be in charge thru a quirk of fate or something, and one can somehow get Him "out of office" if He turns out to be unpopular with enough people.

How about: god as old wise shoa lin priest who is constantly spouting fabulous quotes that make you think but who allows his hot headed student to learn the hard way about life decisions and does NOT micromanage… that’s how I always imagined the Christian god.

I think that God lets us learn the hard way the vast majority of the time - that's what consequences are. And AIDS is one consequence of the choice of many people to engage in a promiscuous lifestyle, to the point where innocents are affected, too (which is always the way with sin, anyway, altho it is not always so visible as with the AIDS problem). Also, if He were constantly micromanaging, it would negate our free will, which He has chosen to give to us to quite a large degree. (BTW, I assume by "micromanaging", you mean taking away the natural consequences of our free will choices - is that right?) However, He certainly has the power and authority to "step in" whenever He deems necessary.

[Rían]

Whoops, just saw your post, GM - you posted while I was typing.

Originally posted by GrayMouser
...though it became widely spread through sexual contact.

Exactly my point - widely spread thru promiscuous sexual contact, which is against God's beneficent design for us. The potential for the spread of diseases like this, in addition to STDs, is just one of the many reasons that God specified that this wonderful gift be confined to a man-woman marriage.

... would cause horrible suffering among people who had not done anything in particular wrong.

(Unless you're saying the young wife who unknowingly gets it from her husband, or is in no position to resist his demands, the child who was infected in the womb, the villagers in China who got it through bad blood donation techniques, the millions who are infected because their clinics are too poor to be able to practise safe hygiene, the teenage prostitutes who are sold into slavery- all these people deserve it in some way that us nice decent people in rich countries don't.)

Here is where you are wrong, GM, and Lief is right - there is no one without sin, and we have all by our own free will choices placed ourselves as slaves to sin. The Bible notes that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness - the point being that ... we are always "slaves" to something, because the only being that is NOT subject to ANYTHING is God Himself. We don't like to hear this, but it's a fact. It's in our very created nature. We are NOT God, and whether we like it or not, God has authority over us. We can refuse to acknowledge it, and thus become slaves to sin, or we can acknowledge it and come into alignment with our intended and right state of being, and with this receive joy as we come into right relationship with our rightful Master who loves us. There is no other choice.

That's why the correct view of God is so important in this subject. The Biblical view of God is that He is all-powerful, all-knowing, loving, holy, righteous, just, patient, etc. He created the universe, and is in rightful authority over it, whether or not people acknowledge it. And one day this will be revealed, but God is delaying the day on purpose, in His mercy, to give everyone every possible chance to come to Him. He has created us with the capacity for free will choice, but He will not rearrange the universe if we don't happen to like it! He created it; it's good; and that's the way it is. We are created beings with a large capacity for free will, and we often choose to go against God's perfect designs, and this is one of the biggest sources of suffering. Our choices affect others, whether we like it or not.

And suffering is limited, and just as in Tolkien's writing, Iluvatar does a deeper good than Melkor can ever do a wrong, God allows suffering but works deeper goods in the suffering, if we choose to let Him do so by submitting to His authority. Again, the Bible says that the sufferings in this present life are considered to be nothing against the joy that will come in heaven. And EVERYONE has the free-will choice to accept God's authority and enter into heaven - the Bible is very clear that NO ONE will have a valid excuse for rejecting Him when the day comes and each person will enter their CHOSEN place in eternity.

Tell me again what free will they had.

Certainly - see above. They may not have had a choice to get that particular consequence, but NO ONE is without sin, so everyone is subject to the effects of sin. Another great reason to become a Christian, BTW - as God starts to break the power of sin in your life, you hurt those around you less.

AIDS is new- your stained glass window has existed for a long time, with panels getting busted now and then- now its Maker decides to wire up a fragmentation grenade to the frame- anybody in the vicinity gets shards of glass driven through their body, whether they threw a rock or not.

<shrug> Collateral damage.

Nope- the maker has generously given a beautiful gift, and instructions for its use and appreciation, and warnings to not use it in the wrong way. It is a person's FREE WILL CHOICE to sin and cause damage to himself/herself and those around them.

[Rían]

BTW, GMouser - you mentioned the book of Job in the Bible when talking about literature on suffering - do you remember how God answered Job when Job complained about his suffering? And do you remember Job's response to God's answer? Quite interesting...

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Do you think pedophiles should be allowed to "appreciate the stained glass"? (IOW, have sex with young children)

You are comparing someone who has consentual sex with another adult of the same sex with someone who has sex with children? What kind of comparison is that? IMO, that's a bit warped. They are definitely not anything like the other. You can not lump one in with the other simply because they both have sex. That's like lumping Gandhi in with Hilter because they both ran a country.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
I don't understand this. If God is infinitely wiser than us, than how can we say he's not a micromanager?

are you saying all really wise people are incredible micromanagers? I think it’s the other way around. The truly wise don’t sweat the details. They see the whole picture and the future picture as well and that’s their true concern. Not what someone eats on Fridays or if they wear a vale over their face or not. By making god into this petty anal micromanager you reduce his stature so much. And you essentially make him arbitrary and vein in a much to human kind of way. Let god be. Humans can squabble with each other and sweat the details if they want to but god should be well beyond that it seems to me.

I might try to get into contact with that man I was talking about, so I can talk to you about some of the ways he knows. That's have to go onto the homosexuality thread, though.

yeah. If you like although Im pretty sure weve been back and forth on that specific issue a number of times before and gotten no where. One of the best discussions we had on this message board was that wild one about gay animals and such like 6 months ago in the gay thread.

And for the record . . . homosexuals aren't the only ones who are (however temporarily) incapable of enjoying the glass. There are other people also, who take no interest in sex. They're a great minority, but some people don't ever feel much inclination toward it.

now technically speaking, are these people sinning by not being fruitful and multiplying or is god ok with that since they aren’t out whoring around are getting with the same sex? Does god get mad if you refuse to look at his stained glass?

I don't understand what your problem with a micromanaging God is. Is your problem simply that you can't understand why he does everything? That's what it sounds like, when you simply say "it's much prettier".

see above. And just to add to it, micromanaging is messy and usually self defeating. Or at least not as efficient as delegating and allowing things to develop on their own. Ask any good CEO worth his salt. They aren’t writing the rules about what furniture purchases they need for the Des Moines office. Or checking every single invoice generated for each sale. Do you want a god who does that? Seems like an incredible waste of time when yer trying to run a universe.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Do you think pedophiles should be allowed to "appreciate the stained glass"?

I think it’s a shame that pedophiles have to live with their desires and have no outlet. Straights can appreciate the stained glass. That’s normal. Gays can to some extent less, at least in our society (although not according to your Christian rules of course). But pedophiles must remain in a dungeon of their own mind and never even speak of their desires let alone act on them. This is how it has to be. Because there is simply is NO acceptable way of interacting sexually with a prepubescent child. But what a curse and a nightmare of torture they must deal with every single day of their lives. I don’t think its something we can ever hope to comprehend. We just see them as monsters because of whats inside them.

and don't say I'm saying homosexuals are the same as pedophiles, because I'm most emphatically NOT saying this

Actually I guess I just did myself. Not exactly the same but the whole idea of their nature being against the norms of society and therefore making them pariahs is basically one in the same. Although personally, I draw a difference in that I believe there is not necessarily any harm in two people of the same sex engaging in sexual behavior where as an adult engaging in sexual behavior with a young child is almost always going to be harmful. But you think they are both vile sinners engaging in unchristian prohibited behavior. So in the end you see them the same way really.

You kinda lost me here - I wasn't making a comment on the Gray Davis situation, I was only making the point that some people seem to think that they're basically on the same level with God, and God only happens to be in charge thru a quirk of fate or something, and one can somehow get Him "out of office" if He turns out to be unpopular with enough people.

eh I was just using your comment to take a cheap political pot shot at the whole California recall fiasco. It wasn’t meant to be about god at all. Sorry.

(BTW, I assume by "micromanaging", you mean taking away the natural consequences of our free will choices - is that right?) However, He certainly has the power and authority to "step in" whenever He deems necessary.

Im just trying to get away from the image of god as this guy with a clip board standing behind us and yelling at us “hey you cant do that! Yer violating a rule!� Doesn’t god have much bigger more important things to do then sitting around in our bedroom every night making sure everything is above board if you will?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
You are comparing someone who has consentual sex with another adult of the same sex with someone who has sex with children?

NO, I'M NOT! PLEASE READ THE REST OF THE POST WHERE I CLEARLY STATE THAT THEY ARE NOT THE SAME!! *rolly-eyes back at you!* Geez!
My point was, as I said, that both IRex and I can identify people for whom we think sex is not right (this is assuming that IRex objects to pedophiles having sex with little kids, which I imagine is a pretty safe assumption).

So for many, if not all, pleasures, there are some groups of people that cannot participate in them. So should these pleasures be eliminated? I can't participate in the pleasures peculiar to being a man, because I'm a woman. Is that unfair? Should all men be eliminated because it makes me sad that I can't enjoy some of the pleasures of being a man? Or should I stop whinging about it and just enjoy the many pleasures of being a woman? I think that's what I'll do.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
[B]I think it’s a shame that pedophiles have to live with their desires and have no outlet. ... But pedophiles must remain in a dungeon of their own mind and never even speak of their desires let alone act on them. .... We just see them as monsters because of whats inside them.

I hope they can find people to speak to that can help them with that horrific problem. But I don't see them as monsters. I suppose I see them as really, really sick and damaged people. But it's just degrees - none of us are without sin.

And if we were honest with ourselves, I think we would have to admit that we've done some pretty rotten things ourselves - things that we would be ashamed to have come out into the daylight for others to see ...

... But you think they are both vile sinners engaging in unchristian prohibited behavior. So in the end you see them the same way really.

Yes, but I lump you and me and everyone else in that same category too, IRex, so you can't say I'm prejudiced! We ALL sin, it's just a matter of degree. And as I've said before, the littler sins that I commit might be FAR worse in God's eyes than those that someone else commits that look worse, because I had a good upbringing and no excuses. A person raised in a terrible situation might do better in God's eyes to NOT do a sin 1 time out of 100 than I would do by commiting what would seem to be a little sin.

eh I was just using your comment to take a cheap political pot shot at the whole California recall fiasco. It wasn’t meant to be about god at all. Sorry.

oh, ok - wacky, isn't it?

Im just trying to get away from the image of god as this guy with a clip board standing behind us and yelling at us “hey you cant do that! Yer violating a rule!� Doesn’t god have much bigger more important things to do then sitting around in our bedroom every night making sure everything is above board if you will?

Well, I'm trying to get away from that image, too, because I think it's wrong and a very silly image. More later, gotta go make dinner.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I hope they can find people to speak to that can help them with that horrific problem. But I don't see them as monsters. I suppose I see them as really, really sick and damaged people. But it's just degrees - none of us are without sin.

I just see them as really unlucky. the same way i see people who are born with auto immune diseases or schizophrenia or a fused spine or something. but in some ways their plight is even worse because none of those others have to hide their burdon for fear of being thought of as monsters.

And if we were honest with ourselves, I think we would have to admit that we've done some pretty rotten things ourselves - things that we would be ashamed to have come out into the daylight for others to see ...

no doubt. although I personally have felt that society's norms and standards are arbitrary and puritanical and intrusive and just plain wrong headed in so many ways so lots of the things Ive done that many people would put in the "shame on you" category I have no problem with. Guess its the libertarian side of me. or the hedonistic side. who knows.

Yes, but I lump you and me and everyone else in that same category too, IRex, so you can't say I'm prejudiced! We ALL sin, it's just a matter of degree.

arent the wages of sin death? no matter what the sin?

[GrayMouser]

Jonathan Edwards, whose preaching in large part, sparked the "Great Awakening"; from his sermon

"Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/Ed...s_sinners.html

They don't write them like that any more

While it may be the Christian view that our children
deserve to be born with diseases that will guarantee them short lives filled with agony, and that we deserve to have to watch them suffer this way; I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree that the instigator of this should be labelled "just" or "good".

(And, BTW, doesn't that mean that the scientists working on a vaccine are opposing God's will by making the world safe for sinful sex again?)

And what did God reply to Job? Basically, He didn't- He just said that it's His world and He can do whatever He likes- which may even be true, but it doesn't answer the question.

I'll stick with Stendahl: "God's only excuse is that He doesn't exist"

[Lief Erikson]

Here is the conclusion between the debate between God and Job.

"Then Job replied to the Lord: "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you will answer me.' My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes."


He said basically what I've been saying all along. God is wise, and we do not always know all of his purposes. We are mortal, he is incredible, and he is divine. It is foolish to put him in a box, and say "he can have no good purpose for such an event!" This statement is based upon our feeble and incredibly limited ability to view reality. Certainly those things we observe happening are evil! But this does not in any way mean that God has no right to let them happen, if he deems fit. Job said, "no plan of yours can be thwarted," and that God is a righteous God, even though, as he said in Chapter 27:2, God had denied him justice.

Job acknowledged that God was God, and it was foolishness for him to state that God was wrong to do what he had done. He realized he was a mortal man, and acknowledged it. He knew that a mere man cannot with justice judge God.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
are you saying all really wise people are incredible micromanagers? I think it’s the other way around. The truly wise don’t sweat the details. They see the whole picture and the future picture as well and that’s their true concern. Not what someone eats on Fridays or if they wear a vale over their face or not.

Luckily, God loves us. This causes him to care very much about the details. The two details you mentioned, I don't think he cares so overly much about. When Jesus came, we could see how he reacts to the law. He got into constant arguments with the Pharisees about the law. "Do not heal on the Sabbath." "Your disciples should be fasting." etc.

The spirit of the law was what was important. That's a big subject, though. Some of the things for people to do that were spoken of in the Bible were cultural, not universal. Some were important and symbolic of spiritual truths. For example, we still keep the Sabbath.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
By making god into this petty anal micromanager you reduce his stature so much. And you essentially make him arbitrary and vein in a much to human kind of way. Let god be. Humans can squabble with each other and sweat the details if they want to but god should be well beyond that it seems to me.

I don't see how being a micromanager makes God "arbitrary and vain in a much too human kind of way."

It shows caring and love, and personal interaction. It also is proof of his awesome power, if the atoms, if chance, if all things in his design are under his sway and running according to his plan. We are a part of that design, an important part. It truly is awesome, when you get a better picture of God's nature.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
yeah. If you like although Im pretty sure weve been back and forth on that specific issue a number of times before and gotten no where. One of the best discussions we had on this message board was that wild one about gay animals and such like 6 months ago in the gay thread.

I have no problem with leaving that topic alone.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
now technically speaking, are these people sinning by not being fruitful and multiplying or is god ok with that since they aren’t out whoring around are getting with the same sex? Does god get mad if you refuse to look at his stained glass?

No. You know what? Paul actually told people in one of his books that he thinks it better that people not marry, because it would increase their freedom to evangelize.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't understand what your problem with a micromanaging God is. Is your problem simply that you can't understand why he does everything? That's what it sounds like, when you simply say "it's much prettier".
------------------------------------------------------------------------

see above. And just to add to it, micromanaging is messy and usually self defeating. Or at least not as efficient as delegating and allowing things to develop on their own.

That seems a very human argument to me . If God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, there's no way that any of those human problems will apply to him.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Ask any good CEO worth his salt. They aren’t writing the rules about what furniture purchases they need for the Des Moines office. Or checking every single invoice generated for each sale. Do you want a god who does that? Seems like an incredible waste of time when yer trying to run a universe.

Not when he commands everything at once. All it does is show his awesome power over everything, not a petty foolishness.

I think you're imagining things a bit wrong, see. You, I believe, aren't imagining as strong a God as Christians believe in, or as loving a God, or as present a God. In short, I believe you're imagining a more human God who is very, very much less than the God Christians believe in .

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
arent the wages of sin death? no matter what the sin?

Yes ... but just like in the Creation/Evolution thread, be sure to quote the whole sentence (or more, if necessary for proper context, since we're not interested in silly word-wrangling, but discussing important topics) (I added bold for emphasis) :

Romans 3:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Rían]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Jonathan Edwards, whose preaching in large part, sparked the "Great Awakening"; from his sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" ....

*gets out Bible*
*pages thru Table of Contents*
Well, I was right; "Jonathan Edwards" is NOT a book in the Bible so I don't mind saying that I think he did not present an accurate view of the whole picture, IMO (altho I don't recall the entire sermon).

OK, just a small sample of verses from the Bible, working in order from Genesis to Revelation :

(God made us, and declared it good.)

from Genesis 1:27,28,31
And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. And God blessed them .... And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

(we are beings of great dignity and worth)

Psalm 8:3-5
When I consider Thy heavens, the work of Thy fingers,
The moon and the stars, which Thou hast ordained,
What is man, that Thou dost take thought of him?
And the son of man, that Thou dost care for him?
Yet Thou hast made him a little lower than God,
And dost crown him with glory and majesty!

(God longs to bless us - but we can refuse to accept His blessing)

Isaiah 30:18
Therefore the Lord longs to be gracious to you,
And therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you.
For the Lord is a God of justice;
How blessed are all those who long for Him.

(God loves us with an everlasting love)

Isaiah 49:15, 16a (God speaking)
Can a woman forget her nursing child,
And have no compassion on the son of her womb?
Even these may forget, but I will not forget you.
Behold, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands.

(God loves us so much that He bore the penalty for our sins, if we will accept it)

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

(ditto)

John 15:15
Greater lover has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

(ditto)

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

(no comment needed.)

First John 4:19
We love, because He first loved us.

(ditto)

Revelation 1:5b
To Him who loves us, and released us from our sins by His blood,

[Rían]

And the pattern you see all throughout the Old Testament is God loving His people and longing for them, but having to send afflictions because they are choosing ways that He, as their Maker, knows will only bring death to them. There is never a "zap those jerks!" sense; only a "oh, my people.... oh, my people... I long for your return, for I love you, and your life and joy is in Me."

And now I need to go and pick up the kidlings from school - I'm sure I didn't word this as well as I could have wished, but perhaps I got a faint echo across.

PS - and a question for while I'm gone - which of you have ever used phrases like "I wish [insert event] would happen!"; or "I hope [insert event] doesn't happen!" Just curious....

[Rían]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
And what did God reply to Job? Basically, He didn't- He just said that it's His world and He can do whatever He likes- which may even be true, but it doesn't answer the question.

It appears to be your opinion that God did not answer Job's question; however, Job certainly considered God's answer as sufficient and appropriate to his question, and he even took action based on the answer he received (he repented).

There are some questions whose answer is not in the original "answer option" list in the mind of the asker. IOW, God's answer was NOT what Job expected, but when he got the answer, he realized that it was indeed an appropriate answer.

You really gotta read Till We Have Faces - it addresses this point in a fascinating manner...

[Earniel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
PS - and a question for while I'm gone - which of you have ever used phrases like "I wish [insert event] would happen!"; or "I hope [insert event] doesn't happen!" Just curious....

I've done that a number of times as, I imagine, has everybody done at some point. Though that doesn't mean I expect a divine being to make it happen it for me.

[Silme*Christian]

I have a question that I want everyone to answer. It is sort of off subject, and I apologize about that, dearly. My youth group is studying "women of the bible" and we are in the discussion of prostitutes. We all have to give/speek our minds about purity, to stay pure until marriage. I want your opinions about this subject too. Not only Christians can answer, Jew Catholics and ALL religions can answer as they wish.
My request is: no swearing, respectful words, please, and say what you feel (example: I think everyone should wait for that special someone to come along before they go ahead and do it, I have much [Christian] scripture to back my theory that if you DON'T wait then you are to be put into the eternal fire (HELL).)
That is all, thank you.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
I have a question that I want everyone to answer. It is sort of off subject, and I apologize about that, dearly. My youth group is studying "women of the bible" and we are in the discussion of prostitutes. We all have to give/speek our minds about purity, to stay pure until marriage. I want your opinions about this subject too. Not only Christians can answer, Jew Catholics and ALL religions can answer as they wish.
My request is: no swearing, respectful words, please, and say what you feel (example: I think everyone should wait for that special someone to come along before they go ahead and do it, I have much [Christian] scripture to back my theory that if you DON'T wait then you are to be put into the eternal fire (HELL).)
That is all, thank you.

Here's a thread where it was discussed a bit: I Kissed Dating Goodbye book

As for your scripture references on the subject, I would also like to point out that one will end up in hell for gossiping, too (Romans 1:29). And that Jesus's harshest criticism was not for the prostitutes, whom he treated with respect (altho still pointing out their sin), but for the self-righteous Pharisees.

I think that one must be careful when singling out a particular sin as sending a person to hell, when in fact ANY sin, combined with a person's refusal of God's gift of grace, will do the job . As Lief and I have said, the big point is that everyone sins ... and that God's free gift of salvation is offered to everyone.

That said, I think that staying a virgin until your wedding night is a fabulous thing, and the best thing that you can do in that area, and in accordance with God's best for you. See the thread if you're interested in more detail

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I've done that a number of times as, I imagine, has everybody done at some point. Though that doesn't mean I expect a divine being to make it happen it for me.

Thanks for answering, Eärniel - you're always so patient with my funny little ways of discussing things

My point was going to be a bit different from what you concluded, tho. It was that we ALL say things like that, along with expressions of surprise and similar things that indicate that ... we are NOT God!. Because God doesn't ever have the need to talk like that And the more I think about the subject of suffering, the more I think that the answer boils down to a PERSON, not a mere explanation. And the person is God, and who He is. And I think that God might agree with my answer because that's how He answered Job...

I was lying awake in bed last night, trying to think of examples of a person, and not a string of words, being the answer to a question. I thought of a few, but not any I was really happy with - can you guys think of some others? One was the question of "What was wrong with you, Sue, 8 months ago when I visited last? You seemed so tired, and you felt so sick!" The answer would be plain when Sue held up her newborn baby

Also, a harried new teacher with her rowdy class of young children - they're getting out of their seats, talking when they're supposed to be quiet, throwing things - then all of a sudden they stop. The teacher's question would be "Why are they behaving so nicely all of a sudden?" and she would turn around and see the answer in a person - the strict principal just walked in the room. The answer is not only in who the person IS, but also what his authority is (the princiapl for that particular school).

These are such rough examples of what I'm trying to express - but do you get my meaning?