Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[GrayMouser]

As far as AIDS is concerned, you say

I believe that diseases like AIDS are still being used by God for good purposes. What they are, I don't know. But from what we can see of his character, I think I can put my trust in him

But what we can see of His character comes from what we see of His actions.

Either unleashing, or allowing to be unleashed, a terrible disease that kills innocent victims and infects fetuses in their mothers's wombs leading to short lives full of agony seems to be a not-so-good character reference.

To say, "well, gee, must have some kind of a good purpose": sorry, that's not good enough for me."

Job was a good reference. He could not understand why God had brought those terrible disasters upon him in this life. It was not God either, technically, but was actually the devil. God had power over what the devil did, and used Job's suffering for good purposes. In the end, even in this life, he was blessed hugely after his great trial.

What good purpose? And a bit rough on the wife and kiddies, wasn't it?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Umm... given that the country is 90% Muslim, either that was an Islamic revival or for some reason only Christians (8%) get sick in Indonesia.

Since then there has been a vast range of persecutions. In the papers I receive from missionaries on which places to pray for, Indonesia is one of the big ones, because of the ferocious persecution.

Originally posted by GrayMouser
As far as AIDS is concerned, you say


quote:
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I believe that diseases like AIDS are still being used by God for good purposes. What they are, I don't know. But from what we can see of his character, I think I can put my trust in him
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But what we can see of His character comes from what we see of His actions.

Either unleashing, or allowing to be unleashed, a terrible disease that kills innocent victims and infects fetuses in their mothers's wombs leading to short lives full of agony seems to be a not-so-good character reference.

To say, "well, gee, must have some kind of a good purpose": sorry, that's not good enough for me."

Yes, what we can see of God's character we can often see from his actions. And the actions that are most easy to interpret are those that we can see most plainly. His life on Earth seems very important to discern his character from. It seems to me to be foolishness to ignore his words and what we can most easily perceive of his character, and then go and aim at something that there could be a variety of reasons for.
For one, the devil could be the immediate person responsible.
For two, humans could be. That would be my guess, actually, as being the primary reason in this case.

Originally written in "The World Book"
The most common way of becoming infected is through intimate sexual contact. Sexual transmissikon of the AIDS virus has occurred mainly among homosexual men, but it has also occurred among bisexual and heterosexual men and women.

In the Bible, the Lord speaks against homosexuality, and many more times against sex outside of marriage. Sex with one partner, or marriage, seems unlikely to end up causing AIDS, though it is possible in a very unlikely circumstance. The Lord gave out the best ways to avoid AIDS in the Bible. How can you blame him, if humanity ignores his direction?

And of course, for three, it could be that we simply don't know as yet why the Lord did this, if he did do it. It seems to me to be extremely foolish for us to say "God most likely did this for kicks," simply because we, from our extremely limited viewpoint, cannot immediately see the reason. If this is vital to your faith for you to know the reason it was allowed to happen, then after you come to know him, he will talk to you, and make the truth of his reason known to you.

I can bear personal witness to this being possible to occur. The Lord gave me multiple powerful spiritual experiences through which I came to absolute certainty that there were spirits, angels and demons. I wanted to know, however, that God was God, and not simply a spirit. So I set up what I knew, and what I didn't know, and suddenly the Lord interrupted my own thoughts. He suddenly started speaking with me, so that instead of working it out for myself, I was able to hold a debate with God. I threw my toughest questions at him, and thought deeply about his answers. He proved to me that he was God.

From my own limited reference point, I could have made a snap judgement. God is omniscient. We are very, very limited in knowledge. By very definition, this means that he would logically make different decisions than we would.


Also, one last thing I'd like to point out. Humanity is really a huge amount more sinful than any of us realize. Indeed, by ourselves, our righteous acts are as "filthy rags," as is written in the Bible. Our attempts to earn our own salvation are useless.

It's a very pessimistic view, perhaps, but it is extremely accurate from Christian experience. RÃ*an I'm certain will back me up on this. A person truly has no idea about the depths of their sin. These deep sins, God in his righteousness cannot stand. They call judgement upon the perpetrators. When someone comes to know Christ, he gradually reveals to them more and more of their sins, and helps them to come out of them, into greater righteousness.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
quote:
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Job was a good reference. He could not understand why God had brought those terrible disasters upon him in this life. It was not God either, technically, but was actually the devil. God had power over what the devil did, and used Job's suffering for good purposes. In the end, even in this life, he was blessed hugely after his great trial.
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What good purpose? And a bit rough on the wife and kiddies, wasn't it?

In 2 Samuel 24:1, it says "Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."

In God's eyes, this was a sin, and he punished it. He caused devestation in the country of Israel. On first glance, this might appear unjust. Why should he punish the country of Israel for David's sin?

But David was their leader, their king. It says that God was angered against Israel, even before David's sin. It seems to me, thus, to be more likely that God withheld his hand of justice from the nation because of the righteousness of its king, until he brought judgement on himself by sinning.

So, in this case God's judgement upon the people of Israel seems unjust, on first glance. Because of someone else, punishing other people. However, if we see further, we can see that God's judgement actually was more likely being withheld from the country by David.

In 1 Chronicles, it says that Satan incited David to take the census. God, it was showing in 2 Samuel, was still in sovereign control of the situation.

So you see, in this situation it turned out to be very different then it might appear to be on face value. The judgement on the people wasn't solely because of David, but was because of their own sins. I don't know what the purpose of Job's ordeal was. It seems illogical to automatically assume that there was no reason for killing his family aside from a desire to test Job.

It's just . . . the whole belief that from our own incredibly limited base of knowledge, we can judge God, seems foolish in the extreme.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
In the Bible, the Lord speaks against homosexuality, and many more times against sex outside of marriage. Sex with one partner, or marriage, seems unlikely to end up causing AIDS, though it is possible in a very unlikely circumstance. The Lord gave out the best ways to avoid AIDS in the Bible. How can you blame him, if humanity ignores his direction?

wait are you saying here that god brought the plauge that is AIDS to humanity to kill homosexuals? and people who have sex out of wedlock? (and apparently people who get blood transfusions? and unborn babies who.... hey thats pretty ironic now....)

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
wait are you saying here that god brought the plauge that is AIDS to humanity to kill homosexuals? and people who have sex out of wedlock?

You do not see homosexuality or sex outside of wedlock to be a sin, so you don't see God to be just in this case. But it's the Christian God we're talking about here. If you believe God is different, and thus he is to blame, and thus he doesn't exist, then you're judging something other than the God we believe in.

Also, as I said before, God specifically told humanity not to take the actions that lead to that disease. If they refuse his advice, how is he to blame?

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
(and apparently people who get blood transfusions? and unborn babies who.... hey thats pretty ironic now....)

The sins of a few people can sometimes have long reaching consequences. The sins of a terrorist can cause destruction to innocent people as well. Simply having God stop the terrorists would mean taking direct police action of God all the time to keep humanity in order. This would mean the end of free will.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
You do not see homosexuality or sex outside of wedlock to be a sin, so you don't see God to be just in this case. But it's the Christian God we're talking about here. If you believe God is different, and thus he is to blame, and thus he doesn't exist, then you're judging something other than the God we believe in.

Also, as I said before, God specifically told humanity not to take the actions that lead to that disease. If they refuse his advice, how is he to blame?

ok first off just for the record Ive always thought the whole "why would god allow [insert horrible thing here] to exist/happen" approach was really quite a silly argument against the very existance of god (and yes Im talking about the christian god) because it seems quite evident to me that if god exists in the form that the christians say he does then he certainly doesnt sweat the details. hes not at all a micromanager (you can tie that into the whole "free will" argument if you like). hes a big picture kinda god. hes got bigger things on his mind and all the time in the world (literally) so worrying about every action and reaction in the universe is not his modus operendi. his management style is vastly different. And really thats all you need to say here. End of argument.

But since you are willing to take on the god as micromanager argument then lets keep going....

So god creates AIDS to kill nasty homosexuals and people who have sex out of wedlock who wouldnt change their evil ways like he told them to in the bible. Well this is a messy form of justice. And quite arbitrary. Why not just incinerate them all where they stand. thats neat and clean and gets the job done and scares the bajesus out of everyone else who ever thought about getting with the same sex or having a little fun before being legally wedlocked. also you dont have the whole collateral damage thing (killing babies and innocent people) to add to your PR headaches.

Now if we are to assume this is the whole point of AIDS then is the same true for every other disease out there? Did he send down the plague in the 1400’s to kill off 1/3 of the entire population of Europe for some reason? Is he responsible for countless forms of cancers that pick on groups of people (women, children, etc.) who we would assume are not on gods list of people who need to be purged because of their behavior like gays? I mean cancers kill good god fearing Christians by the millions leaving their children and families in the lurch and much worse off. If god is a micromanager then whats with that?

Now keep in mind even as Im writing this Im thinking god what a stupid argument because the micromanager theory just seems so stupid. it seems quite clear to me that its not about the minute details at all. But since you opened that door I figured Id walk in. devil’s advocate you know…

[Rían]

Another angle on the "why did God allow AIDS to happen" question -

Why in the world did the person who made the incredibly beautiful stained glass window make it so darn breakable? Why, if someone damages it by treating it wrong, it can break into pieces that are really sharp and will hurt someone! What a mean person that made that beautiful stained glass window!

Think about it...



(I'll post more soon - had houseguests over the weekend and couldn't post)

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Another angle on the "why did God allow AIDS to happen" question -

Why in the world did the person who made the incredibly beautiful stained glass window make it so darn breakable? Why, if someone damages it by treating it wrong, it can break into pieces that are really sharp and will hurt someone! What a mean person that made that beautiful stained glass window!

are you saying AIDS is really a beautiful thing when looked at in the right light?

ha ha! sorry couldnt resist. but seriously what is the parallel for the stained glass in your analogy? If AIDS is the sharp broken glass.

[Elfmaster XK]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Another angle on the "why did God allow AIDS to happen" question -

Why in the world did the person who made the incredibly beautiful stained glass window make it so darn breakable? Why, if someone damages it by treating it wrong, it can break into pieces that are really sharp and will hurt someone! What a mean person that made that beautiful stained glass window!

Think about it...

Though I like your analogy; you know at the time stained glass was first used, there really wasn't any other material for them to use to make it.

ha ha! sorry couldnt resist. but seriously what is the parallel for the stained glass in your analogy? If AIDS is the sharp broken glass.

Maybe she is trying to say sometimes beautiful things (life?) cannot help but be delicate and suceptable to damage?

[Lief Erikson]

She is saying pretty much what I've been saying. God made man and woman to have a single partnership, a beautiful thing (the stain glass window). We break the stain glass window, and then we blame God for getting hurt (which is the argument against AIDS).

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
So god creates AIDS to kill nasty homosexuals and people who have sex out of wedlock who wouldnt change their evil ways like he told them to in the bible. Well this is a messy form of justice. And quite arbitrary. Why not just incinerate them all where they stand. thats neat and clean and gets the job done and scares the bajesus out of everyone else who ever thought about getting with the same sex or having a little fun before being legally wedlocked. also you dont have the whole collateral damage thing (killing babies and innocent people) to add to your PR headaches.

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
The sins of a few people can sometimes have long reaching consequences. The sins of a terrorist can cause destruction to innocent people as well. Simply having God stop the terrorists would mean taking direct police action of God all the time to keep humanity in order. This would mean the end of free will.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Now if we are to assume this is the whole point of AIDS then is the same true for every other disease out there? Did he send down the plague in the 1400’s to kill off 1/3 of the entire population of Europe for some reason? Is he responsible for countless forms of cancers that pick on groups of people (women, children, etc.) who we would assume are not on gods list of people who need to be purged because of their behavior like gays? I mean cancers kill good god fearing Christians by the millions leaving their children and families in the lurch and much worse off. If god is a micromanager then whats with that?

Not every plague has the same purpose. I wouldn't say that all are judgements on sins, either. With one that Jesus healed, he said "Neither this man nor his parents sinned. This was done that the glory of God might be revealed." With another, he said that Satan had bound her, and he had released her. Not every plague is even God's fault. The ones that man brings upon himself by refusing to heed God's direction, I would not be quick to blame on God. The ones that Satan uses, I also wouldn't be quick to blame on God. God is in control of all things, but he allows the angels free will as well.

It says in the Bible that God knows the hairs on every man's head. That he feeds the sparrows, and clothes the flowers. He claimed once about a sinful nation, that if Daniel and Job were in that nation, he would punish the nation, all except for those two. He is an incredible micromanager. Even when it comes to pain and suffering in the lives of good people. Being a micromanager doesn't mean being the ultimate police man, and blasting by fire from heaven everyone who breaks the Commandments.

Being a micromanager doesn't mean making everything easy for everyone. Indeed, being a Christian is full of trials. God just loves to pull the mat out from under our feet, and catch us before we fall. This strengthens and builds us up. C.S. Lewis wrote about pain that it was often God's loudspeaker to humanity.

Christ allowed a messenger from Satan to put a thorn in Paul's side that caused him great pain. He asked Christ three times to remove it, and each time Christ said that his strength was made perfect in weakness.

Once again. We are incredibly limited in scope and knowledge. It seems to me the height of foolishness, therefore, simply because we don't understand something that God is doing, for us to say that there isn't any good reason for it.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Another angle on the "why did God allow AIDS to happen" question -

Why in the world did the person who made the incredibly beautiful stained glass window make it so darn breakable? Why, if someone damages it by treating it wrong, it can break into pieces that are really sharp and will hurt someone! What a mean person that made that beautiful stained glass window!

Think about it...



(I'll post more soon - had houseguests over the weekend and couldn't post)

Use safety glass

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Another angle on the "why did God allow AIDS to happen" question -

Why in the world did the person who made the incredibly beautiful stained glass window make it so darn breakable? Why, if someone damages it by treating it wrong, it can break into pieces that are really sharp and will hurt someone! What a mean person that made that beautiful stained glass window!

Think about it...

The glass used has to be colored, it has to be easily cut into odd shapes. That's why it is easily breakable and is sharp when cut.

Your analogy makes no sense to me.

[Rían]

EXK and Lief are right about one aspect of my analogy - I'm saying that sex within marriage is a beautiful gift given to us by God, the One who designed us. Like all beautiful and valuable things, it has limits as to who may handle it and how it may be handled (that's why exhibits in museums are roped off and put into cases).

GrayM and Ruinel - if you had a good friend who was a master in the field of stained glass, and this good friend made a beautiful work as a present for you, made out of rare, fragile and breakable glass, would you say "no, thanks, I only want one made to MY specifications, even tho I'm not a master in the field! You can take this beautiful work and trash it!" You would not only be trashing a rare and beautiful work, you would be hurting and insulting your friend.

And if you, in your ignorant pride, decided to accept this work of love by the master craftsman, even tho you really preferred something more durable, like a window made with Play-Dough, would you follow his guidelines as to how it should be handled, or would you just ignore his guidelines and toss it on the floor in the kitchen, open to all comers to handle, and then get upset when it gets destroyed and people get hurt with the shards?

The main objections I see boiled down to "well, I wouldn't have done it that way! I don't think it's the best way to make it." And my reply is that (1) the Maker knows more than the people that He has made, and (2) beautiful gifts must be received with thanks and handled with respect and in accordance with the guidelines of the One that created both the beautiful thing and the ones that He gives the beautiful thing to.

(rather a poorly-worded last sentence - did it make sense?)

And really, the bigger issue of the analogy is that the receivers of the gift are rejecting both the priceless gift and the loving Giver.

[Rían]

And the other thing I've seen so far in the discussion of this topic are some views of God that are NOT Biblically correct, such as :

• *God as vending maching/short-order cook;
  *God as Tinker Bell (if only you children will believe in Him, he'll live! Please oh please believe in Him!);
  *God as Uriah Heep (from Charles Dickens' David Copperfield, as I imagine most of you here know) - a very "umble" person, not wanting to cause any trouble;
  * God as Mr. Dick (again from David Copperfield) - the "He's a nice guy and tries hard, but he's a little slow on the uptake, if you know what I mean" view.
  * God as Gray Davis (the governor of California who is going thru a recall vote) - basically a peer put into a position of authority by other peers, and who can be removed by popular vote
  * God as a miserly, cranky old killjoy - "Rats! They're having fun over there - I'll put a stop to THAT!!" *sends a plague*

just to name a few (no offense intended - I've just given them some fun names, and I've held these incorrect views at times myself).

I think that when some of these views are looked at and corrected, then the subject will make more sense.

But I must away, ere break of day (or ere 2:30!) to school!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
...GrayM and Ruinel - if you had a good friend who was a master in the field of stained glass, and this good friend made a beautiful work as a present for you, made out of rare, fragile and breakable glass, would you say "no, thanks, I only want one made to MY specifications, even tho I'm not a master in the field! You can take this beautiful work and trash it!" You would not only be trashing a rare and beautiful work, you would be hurting and insulting your friend.
....

Actually, a better analogy would have been... your god is like a really bad chuck wagon cook, he makes this damn awful stew, and sometimes you get stones in it, but you eat it anyway because there's nothing else to eat and you are starving because you toiled all day.

[Rían]

Ruinel - your post reminded me of several other Biblically incorrect views of God (IMHO) , which I'll add to the list above:

• * God as Mr. Dick (again from David Copperfield) - the "He's a nice guy and tries hard, but he's a little slow on the uptake, if you know what I mean" view.
  * God as Gray Davis (the governor of California who is going thru a recall vote) - basically a peer put into a position of authority by other peers, and who can be removed by popular vote
  * God as a miserly, cranky old killjoy - "Rats! They're having fun over there - I'll put a stop to THAT!!" *sends a plague*

And I guess I have a higher opinion of sex (a beautiful stained glass window) than you do! (an awful stew made by a bad chuck wagon cook)

(not that I think you meant it that way but do you see my point? that there are things that are meant to be only handled in certain ways and in certain environments, and that sex might possibly be one of these, and that when it's out of its proper element that hurtful things can happen?)

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson Once again. We are incredibly limited in scope and knowledge. It seems to me the height of foolishness, therefore, simply because we don't understand something that God is doing, for us to say that there isn't any good reason for it.

that’s all you had to say!! Whyd you say ALL that other stuff then end with this? All that other stuff was unnecessary. This makes total perfect sense. Lose the god as micromanager argument. Keep the god is infinitely wiser then us. Don’t assume to know what he has in mind argument. Its much prettier.

Originally posted by RÃ*an
EXK and Lief are right about one aspect of my analogy - I'm saying that sex within marriage is a beautiful gift given to us by God, the One who designed us. Like all beautiful and valuable things, it has limits as to who may handle it and how it may be handled (that's why exhibits in museums are roped off and put into cases).

So then according to god gays aren’t allowed to appreciate stained glass?

Originally posted by RÃ*an
* God as Gray Davis (the governor of California who is going thru a recall vote)

So then republicans can buy their own choice of who they want to be god just cause they have the money and the residences of heaven are stupid enough to think its actually an ok idea?

How about: god as old wise shoa lin priest who is constantly spouting fabulous quotes that make you think but who allows his hot headed student to learn the hard way about life decisions and does NOT micromanage… that’s how I always imagined the Christian god.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Use safety glass

So much for free will .

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
quote:
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Originally posted by Lief Erikson Once again. We are incredibly limited in scope and knowledge. It seems to me the height of foolishness, therefore, simply because we don't understand something that God is doing, for us to say that there isn't any good reason for it.
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that’s all you had to say!! Whyd you say ALL that other stuff then end with this?

Bear with me. I'm longwinded .

I wanted to close by emphasizing again how illogical it is to make judgements on God based upon a strong lack of knowledge. It was meant to be a summary. The rest of the post was primarily citing examples.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
All that other stuff was unnecessary. This makes total perfect sense. Lose the god as micromanager argument. Keep the god is infinitely wiser then us.

I don't understand this. If God is infinitely wiser than us, than how can we say he's not a micromanager?

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Don’t assume to know what he has in mind argument. Its much prettier.


quote:
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Originally posted by RÃ*an
EXK and Lief are right about one aspect of my analogy - I'm saying that sex within marriage is a beautiful gift given to us by God, the One who designed us. Like all beautiful and valuable things, it has limits as to who may handle it and how it may be handled (that's why exhibits in museums are roped off and put into cases).
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So then according to god gays aren’t allowed to appreciate stained glass?

I am very strongly of the opinion that someone's being gay is not related to genes. The people do frequently receive the homosexual impulse against their will, but it doesn't have to be genes, and it can be gotten out of. We know a man who did so change, and I believe . . . though I'm getting a little more out on a limb when I say this . . . that he is involved with centers that help people to lose that homosexual impulse. There is a huge amount of pressure going on in communities for acceptance of gays. Anyone's having disapproval of homosexuality is seen as intolerance. Therefore it is difficult to put in sufficient money into research as well, for ways out of that. There are ways, though. I might try to get into contact with that man I was talking about, so I can talk to you about some of the ways he knows. That's have to go onto the homosexuality thread, though.

And for the record . . . homosexuals aren't the only ones who are (however temporarily) incapable of enjoying the glass. There are other people also, who take no interest in sex. They're a great minority, but some people don't ever feel much inclination toward it.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
quote:
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Originally posted by RÃ*an
* God as Gray Davis (the governor of California who is going thru a recall vote)
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So then republicans can buy their own choice of who they want to be god just cause they have the money and the residences of heaven are stupid enough to think its actually an ok idea?

How about : god as old wise shoa lin priest who is constantly spouting fabulous quotes that make you think but who allows his hot headed student to learn the hard way about life decisions and does NOT micromanage… that’s how I always imagined the Christian god.

God does allow his hot headed student to learn things the hard way, when he rejects God's guidance along the safe and easy way.

I don't understand what your problem with a micromanaging God is. Is your problem simply that you can't understand why he does everything? That's what it sounds like, when you simply say "it's much prettier".

[GrayMouser]

Well, in the case of AIDS it almost certainly originated as a disease that jumped from chimpanzees to humans through a mutation, and was transferred to people through hunting and slaughtering chimpanzees (much as SARS originated in wild meat in the markets of Guangdong), though it became widely spread through sexual contact.

(Anything in Leviticus about chimpazees?)

The point is that either God created AIDS (does this qualify as macroevolution- it's certainly a new species), or He allowed it to be created knowing that the characteristics of the disease -long gestation period, intavenous transfer- would cause horrible suffering among people who had not done anything in particular wrong.

(Unless you're saying the young wife who unknowingly gets it from her husband, or is in no position to resist his demands, the child who was infected in the womb, the villagers in China who got it through bad blood donation techniques, the millions who are infected because their clinics are too poor to be able to practise safe hygiene, the teenage prostitutes who are sold into slavery- all these people deserve it in some way that us nice decent people in rich countries don't.)

Tell me again what free will they had.


AIDS is new- your stained glass window has existed for a long time, with panels getting busted now and then- now its Maker decides to wire up a fragmentation grenade to the frame- anybody in the vicinity gets shards of glass driven through their body, whether they threw a rock or not.

<shrug> Collateral damage.