09-14-2003, 11:50 AM | #1981 | ||
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As far as AIDS is concerned, you say
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Either unleashing, or allowing to be unleashed, a terrible disease that kills innocent victims and infects fetuses in their mothers's wombs leading to short lives full of agony seems to be a not-so-good character reference. To say, "well, gee, must have some kind of a good purpose": sorry, that's not good enough for me." Quote:
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09-14-2003, 03:55 PM | #1982 | |||
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For one, the devil could be the immediate person responsible. For two, humans could be. That would be my guess, actually, as being the primary reason in this case. Quote:
And of course, for three, it could be that we simply don't know as yet why the Lord did this, if he did do it. It seems to me to be extremely foolish for us to say "God most likely did this for kicks," simply because we, from our extremely limited viewpoint, cannot immediately see the reason. If this is vital to your faith for you to know the reason it was allowed to happen, then after you come to know him, he will talk to you, and make the truth of his reason known to you. I can bear personal witness to this being possible to occur. The Lord gave me multiple powerful spiritual experiences through which I came to absolute certainty that there were spirits, angels and demons. I wanted to know, however, that God was God, and not simply a spirit. So I set up what I knew, and what I didn't know, and suddenly the Lord interrupted my own thoughts. He suddenly started speaking with me, so that instead of working it out for myself, I was able to hold a debate with God. I threw my toughest questions at him, and thought deeply about his answers. He proved to me that he was God. From my own limited reference point, I could have made a snap judgement. God is omniscient. We are very, very limited in knowledge. By very definition, this means that he would logically make different decisions than we would. Also, one last thing I'd like to point out. Humanity is really a huge amount more sinful than any of us realize. Indeed, by ourselves, our righteous acts are as "filthy rags," as is written in the Bible. Our attempts to earn our own salvation are useless. It's a very pessimistic view, perhaps, but it is extremely accurate from Christian experience. RÃ*an I'm certain will back me up on this. A person truly has no idea about the depths of their sin. These deep sins, God in his righteousness cannot stand. They call judgement upon the perpetrators. When someone comes to know Christ, he gradually reveals to them more and more of their sins, and helps them to come out of them, into greater righteousness. |
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09-14-2003, 04:01 PM | #1983 | |
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In God's eyes, this was a sin, and he punished it. He caused devestation in the country of Israel. On first glance, this might appear unjust. Why should he punish the country of Israel for David's sin? But David was their leader, their king. It says that God was angered against Israel, even before David's sin. It seems to me, thus, to be more likely that God withheld his hand of justice from the nation because of the righteousness of its king, until he brought judgement on himself by sinning. So, in this case God's judgement upon the people of Israel seems unjust, on first glance. Because of someone else, punishing other people. However, if we see further, we can see that God's judgement actually was more likely being withheld from the country by David. In 1 Chronicles, it says that Satan incited David to take the census. God, it was showing in 2 Samuel, was still in sovereign control of the situation. So you see, in this situation it turned out to be very different then it might appear to be on face value. The judgement on the people wasn't solely because of David, but was because of their own sins. I don't know what the purpose of Job's ordeal was. It seems illogical to automatically assume that there was no reason for killing his family aside from a desire to test Job. It's just . . . the whole belief that from our own incredibly limited base of knowledge, we can judge God, seems foolish in the extreme. |
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09-14-2003, 07:28 PM | #1984 | |
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09-14-2003, 11:33 PM | #1985 | ||
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Also, as I said before, God specifically told humanity not to take the actions that lead to that disease. If they refuse his advice, how is he to blame? Quote:
Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-15-2003 at 04:16 AM. |
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09-15-2003, 01:12 PM | #1986 | |
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But since you are willing to take on the god as micromanager argument then lets keep going.... So god creates AIDS to kill nasty homosexuals and people who have sex out of wedlock who wouldnt change their evil ways like he told them to in the bible. Well this is a messy form of justice. And quite arbitrary. Why not just incinerate them all where they stand. thats neat and clean and gets the job done and scares the bajesus out of everyone else who ever thought about getting with the same sex or having a little fun before being legally wedlocked. also you dont have the whole collateral damage thing (killing babies and innocent people) to add to your PR headaches. Now if we are to assume this is the whole point of AIDS then is the same true for every other disease out there? Did he send down the plague in the 1400’s to kill off 1/3 of the entire population of Europe for some reason? Is he responsible for countless forms of cancers that pick on groups of people (women, children, etc.) who we would assume are not on gods list of people who need to be purged because of their behavior like gays? I mean cancers kill good god fearing Christians by the millions leaving their children and families in the lurch and much worse off. If god is a micromanager then whats with that? Now keep in mind even as Im writing this Im thinking god what a stupid argument because the micromanager theory just seems so stupid. it seems quite clear to me that its not about the minute details at all. But since you opened that door I figured Id walk in. devil’s advocate you know…
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-15-2003, 01:29 PM | #1987 |
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Another angle on the "why did God allow AIDS to happen" question -
Why in the world did the person who made the incredibly beautiful stained glass window make it so darn breakable? Why, if someone damages it by treating it wrong, it can break into pieces that are really sharp and will hurt someone! What a mean person that made that beautiful stained glass window! Think about it... (I'll post more soon - had houseguests over the weekend and couldn't post)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-15-2003, 01:47 PM | #1988 | |
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ha ha! sorry couldnt resist. but seriously what is the parallel for the stained glass in your analogy? If AIDS is the sharp broken glass.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 09-15-2003 at 01:49 PM. |
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09-15-2003, 01:54 PM | #1989 | ||
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09-16-2003, 02:36 AM | #1990 | |||
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She is saying pretty much what I've been saying. God made man and woman to have a single partnership, a beautiful thing (the stain glass window). We break the stain glass window, and then we blame God for getting hurt (which is the argument against AIDS).
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It says in the Bible that God knows the hairs on every man's head. That he feeds the sparrows, and clothes the flowers. He claimed once about a sinful nation, that if Daniel and Job were in that nation, he would punish the nation, all except for those two. He is an incredible micromanager. Even when it comes to pain and suffering in the lives of good people. Being a micromanager doesn't mean being the ultimate police man, and blasting by fire from heaven everyone who breaks the Commandments. Being a micromanager doesn't mean making everything easy for everyone. Indeed, being a Christian is full of trials. God just loves to pull the mat out from under our feet, and catch us before we fall. This strengthens and builds us up. C.S. Lewis wrote about pain that it was often God's loudspeaker to humanity. Christ allowed a messenger from Satan to put a thorn in Paul's side that caused him great pain. He asked Christ three times to remove it, and each time Christ said that his strength was made perfect in weakness. Once again. We are incredibly limited in scope and knowledge. It seems to me the height of foolishness, therefore, simply because we don't understand something that God is doing, for us to say that there isn't any good reason for it. |
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09-16-2003, 03:52 AM | #1991 | |
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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09-16-2003, 05:06 AM | #1992 | |
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Your analogy makes no sense to me. |
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09-16-2003, 05:03 PM | #1993 |
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EXK and Lief are right about one aspect of my analogy - I'm saying that sex within marriage is a beautiful gift given to us by God, the One who designed us. Like all beautiful and valuable things, it has limits as to who may handle it and how it may be handled (that's why exhibits in museums are roped off and put into cases).
GrayM and Ruinel - if you had a good friend who was a master in the field of stained glass, and this good friend made a beautiful work as a present for you, made out of rare, fragile and breakable glass, would you say "no, thanks, I only want one made to MY specifications, even tho I'm not a master in the field! You can take this beautiful work and trash it!" You would not only be trashing a rare and beautiful work, you would be hurting and insulting your friend. And if you, in your ignorant pride, decided to accept this work of love by the master craftsman, even tho you really preferred something more durable, like a window made with Play-Dough, would you follow his guidelines as to how it should be handled, or would you just ignore his guidelines and toss it on the floor in the kitchen, open to all comers to handle, and then get upset when it gets destroyed and people get hurt with the shards? The main objections I see boiled down to "well, I wouldn't have done it that way! I don't think it's the best way to make it." And my reply is that (1) the Maker knows more than the people that He has made, and (2) beautiful gifts must be received with thanks and handled with respect and in accordance with the guidelines of the One that created both the beautiful thing and the ones that He gives the beautiful thing to. (rather a poorly-worded last sentence - did it make sense?) And really, the bigger issue of the analogy is that the receivers of the gift are rejecting both the priceless gift and the loving Giver.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 09-16-2003 at 05:05 PM. |
09-16-2003, 05:13 PM | #1994 |
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And the other thing I've seen so far in the discussion of this topic are some views of God that are NOT Biblically correct, such as :
I think that when some of these views are looked at and corrected, then the subject will make more sense. But I must away, ere break of day (or ere 2:30!) to school!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 09-17-2003 at 12:43 AM. |
09-16-2003, 05:16 PM | #1995 | |
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09-17-2003, 12:39 AM | #1996 |
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Ruinel - your post reminded me of several other Biblically incorrect views of God (IMHO) , which I'll add to the list above:
And I guess I have a higher opinion of sex (a beautiful stained glass window) than you do! (an awful stew made by a bad chuck wagon cook) (not that I think you meant it that way but do you see my point? that there are things that are meant to be only handled in certain ways and in certain environments, and that sex might possibly be one of these, and that when it's out of its proper element that hurtful things can happen?)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 09-17-2003 at 12:42 AM. |
09-17-2003, 01:30 AM | #1997 | |||
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How about: god as old wise shoa lin priest who is constantly spouting fabulous quotes that make you think but who allows his hot headed student to learn the hard way about life decisions and does NOT micromanage… that’s how I always imagined the Christian god.
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09-17-2003, 03:46 AM | #1998 | |
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Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-17-2003 at 03:53 AM. |
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09-17-2003, 04:12 AM | #1999 | ||||
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I wanted to close by emphasizing again how illogical it is to make judgements on God based upon a strong lack of knowledge. It was meant to be a summary. The rest of the post was primarily citing examples. Quote:
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And for the record . . . homosexuals aren't the only ones who are (however temporarily) incapable of enjoying the glass. There are other people also, who take no interest in sex. They're a great minority, but some people don't ever feel much inclination toward it. Quote:
I don't understand what your problem with a micromanaging God is. Is your problem simply that you can't understand why he does everything? That's what it sounds like, when you simply say "it's much prettier". Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-17-2003 at 04:15 AM. |
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09-17-2003, 11:59 AM | #2000 |
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Well, in the case of AIDS it almost certainly originated as a disease that jumped from chimpanzees to humans through a mutation, and was transferred to people through hunting and slaughtering chimpanzees (much as SARS originated in wild meat in the markets of Guangdong), though it became widely spread through sexual contact.
(Anything in Leviticus about chimpazees?) The point is that either God created AIDS (does this qualify as macroevolution- it's certainly a new species), or He allowed it to be created knowing that the characteristics of the disease -long gestation period, intavenous transfer- would cause horrible suffering among people who had not done anything in particular wrong. (Unless you're saying the young wife who unknowingly gets it from her husband, or is in no position to resist his demands, the child who was infected in the womb, the villagers in China who got it through bad blood donation techniques, the millions who are infected because their clinics are too poor to be able to practise safe hygiene, the teenage prostitutes who are sold into slavery- all these people deserve it in some way that us nice decent people in rich countries don't.) Tell me again what free will they had. AIDS is new- your stained glass window has existed for a long time, with panels getting busted now and then- now its Maker decides to wire up a fragmentation grenade to the frame- anybody in the vicinity gets shards of glass driven through their body, whether they threw a rock or not. <shrug> Collateral damage.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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