Bush's Security on visit to Buckingham Palace - Page 10

The Gaffer · 12-02-2003, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Where was Europe helping America to continue the fight in the Pacific after Germany was defeated.

Yes, they were quite right not to join in because they knew in advance that Europe wouldn't help them out with Japan.

However, I'm sure the Anzac and British troops who fought in the Far East might also have something to add to that discussion.

And still, in no sense did England "capture" Scotland at either Union (of the Crowns or of the Parliaments). No matter how you try to phrase it, it's wrong to refer to the UK as "England"

It's probably right in principle that Ireland should be a united country, but if you tried to bring it about there would be a civil war which would make the troubles to date look like a picnic.

jerseydevil · 12-02-2003, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gaffer
And still, in no sense did England "capture" Scotland at either Union (of the Crowns or of the Parliaments). No matter how you try to phrase it, it's wrong to refer to the UK as "England"

It may be wrong to call the CURRENT country England - but no more wrong than thinking that all the states are the same.

As for Scotland - England did "win" the wars between Scotland and itself.

Quote:

It's probably right in principle that Ireland should be a united country, but if you tried to bring it about there would be a civil war which would make the troubles to date look like a picnic.

You don't know that. No one knows that. If it does - then it's the protestants and if that is the case as you claim - they must be FAR worse than the IRA.

GrayMouser · 12-02-2003, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gaffer
).

One of the hideous things Bliar has done is replace the hereditary Lords with appointed ones, thus swapping a system of inherited power for one of patronage.

Welcome to Canada...

GrayMouser · 12-02-2003, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I thought that was because not enough heritary lords want to be involved with parliament.

having respect for our Constitution - does not mean you don't have contempt for the citizens of this country. Especially since the majoroty of the citizens of this country don't agree with your political beliefs. The majority of Americans also still support the war in Iraq. Also - Bush was supported by Congress also, not to mention 60 - 70% of the American people.

Latest support for Policy in Iraq

50%- 44%

That's a 6% difference- or, a 3% swing could put Gaffer in the majority of AMERICANS.

Now, the only way to interpret that, JD, is that you yourself have contempt for 44% of your fellow countrymen- which, considring your record, I find very easy to believe.

jerseydevil · 12-02-2003, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Latest support for Policy in Iraq

50%- 44%

That's a 6% difference- or, a 3% swing could put Gaffer in the majority of AMERICANS.

Now, the only way to interpret that, JD, is that you yourself have contempt for 44% of your fellow countrymen- which, considring your record, I find very easy to believe.

Why is that easy to believe? because I don't agree with your opinions? I have my own opinions. I don't care if 30% only supported the war. If I felt it was necessary - I would still support it. I don't have condempt for those 44% - if the number is right - i just don't agree with them.

Oh - by the way - you didn't give a link for your source.

Ruinel · 12-02-2003, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
..Obviously Europe just feel it's America's fault we didn't get you out the misses you kept getting yourselves into during the 20th century.

And rightfully so, JD. After all, isn't the US the world's police? It's our job to spend our brothers/fathers/sons' and sisters/mothers/daughters' lives at the whim of any country that gets themselves into a pickle *

Sometimes I feel like the US is those bouncers on the Jerry Springer show when the white trash "guests" start bashing each other, it's up to us to hold them back. Despite the tossing of chairs.

*

*said as a jest! Don't get your panties in a twist!

The Gaffer · 12-02-2003, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Welcome to Canada...

Heh heh. Still, it does look as if they will be appointed by an "independent" committee.

Did Canada ever get rid of the Privy Council as its Supreme Court?

Quote:

Originally posted by JerseyDevil
You don't know that. No one knows that. If it does - then it's the protestants and if that is the case as you claim - they must be FAR worse than the IRA.

Careful now, you'll be voicing support for a terrorist organisation next, and I'll have to email your details to John Ashcroft.

GrayMouser · 12-02-2003, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Why is that easy to believe? because I don't agree with your opinions? I have my own opinions. I don't care if 30% only supported the war. If I felt it was necessary - I would still support it. I don't have condempt for those 44% - if the number is right - i just don't agree with them.

Oh - by the way - you didn't give a link for your source.

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

jerseydevil · 12-02-2003, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Careful now, you'll be voicing support for a terrorist organisation next, and I'll have to email your details to John Ashcroft.

Why should I be careful? Oh yeah - i forgot - because in Europe you guys think that everyone goes to jail now because of stating an opinoin. Weren't you the one who stated that the US supported the IRA?

If that's the case as you claim - I guess the government won't really care - now will they?

jerseydevil · 12-02-2003, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Latest support for Policy in Iraq

50%- 44%

That's a 6% difference- or, a 3% swing could put Gaffer in the majority of AMERICANS.

Now, the only way to interpret that, JD, is that you yourself have contempt for 44% of your fellow countrymen- which, considring your record, I find very easy to believe.

You took the wrong polling information.

This is what I had said...

Quote:

The majority of Americans also still support the war in Iraq.

Here is the polling info to support this from the same site you gave...

Quote:

"Do you think the United States was right or wrong in going to war with Iraq?"

11/18-19/03
Right 55%
Wrong 39%
Not Sure 6%

9/3-4/03
Right 63%
Wrong 32%
Unsure 5%

7/16-17/03
Right 61%
Wrong 35%
Unsure 4%

3/27/03
Right 65%
Wrong 28%
Unsure 7%

55% think is was RIGHT to go into iraq and only 39% think it was wrong. You took the do you think the current policy in Iraq is right or not.

The next time I would suggest you take the correct polling information if you want to argue against me.

Ruinel · 12-02-2003, 01:51 PM

I'm anxious for Iraq to govern itself. I want to see a government established soon of their people, by their people and for their people.

I know they will have a hard time in the beginning, but so did other countries, including the US, at first. It will be a struggle for them, and worse, I think, because of the volitility of the area around them.

I just hope the rest of the world will be more helpful to Iraq in their transition from dictatorship to a democracy. The war is done, whether I supported it or not. I suppose then its time to help and not bitch about it.

jerseydevil · 12-02-2003, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
I'm anxious for Iraq to govern itself. I want to see a government established soon of their people, by their people and for their people.

I know they will have a hard time in the beginning, but so did other countries, including the US, at first. It will be a struggle for them, and worse, I think, because of the volitility of the area around them.

I just hope the rest of the world will be more helpful to Iraq in their transition from dictatorship to a democracy. The war is done, whether I supported it or not. I suppose then its time to help and not bitch about it.

It took 10 years to fully release Germany and Japan. They were in a lot better position than iraq is. It's not going to be an easy thing. But I wish the world would see why this is important - but if they don't - then we must. Will we get any thanks if we successfully bring democracy to the Middle East? Of course not - they will just have something else to bitch at us about.

Ruinel · 12-02-2003, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
... Will we get any thanks if we successfully bring democracy to the Middle East? Of course not - they will just have something else to bitch at us about.

No, no one is going to thank us for jack $h!t. I predict that we will be blamed for any failures of their government, not letting them govern themselves sooner, or something else.

Dude, I don't know why you don't get it yet.

I guess no one told you, but we (the USA) are the "whipping boy" of the world.

We're supposed to just take our licks and say thank you.

jerseydevil · 12-02-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
No, no one is going to thank us for jack $h!t. I predict that we will be blamed for any failures of their government, not letting them govern themselves sooner, or something else.

Well French news was saying several weeks ago that we were finally listening to them by stating that we were going to turn over responsibilty to the Iraqis sooner. They were also saying that we're saying they were right all along. I guess it's whatever makes them feel superior.

Quote:

Dude, I don't know why you don't get it yet. I guess no one told you, but we (the USA) are the "whipping boy" of the world. We're supposed to just take our licks and say thank you.

I get it - just don't like it - nor am I willing to just lie down and let them do it.

Ruinel · 12-02-2003, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well French news was saying several weeks ago that we were finally listening to them by stating that we were going to turn over responsibilty to the Iraqis sooner. They were also saying that we're saying they were right all along. I guess it's whatever makes them feel superior.

"We" are listening to "them"?

That's news to me!

And what exactly were they supposed to be right about?

Quote:

I get it - just don't like it - nor am I willing to just lie down and let them do it.

No no no. Not lay down and take it, bend over and take it. And that would be without complaint. You're not complying with the agreement that the rest of the world made.

I guess you didn't get the memo.

Tuor of Gondolin · 12-02-2003, 04:29 PM

I'm afraid that complaining about not being appreciated misses a key reason for some of the resentment of use of American power by the current crew in Washington, the incredible arrogance and contempt they exhibit when their radical neoconservative philosophy is questioned in any way. Remember, Bush II said before getting to occupy the White House that he would be humble in conducting foreign affairs, but he, and even more Rumsfeld and Chaney, then exhibited no tolerance for real discussion and consideration for others views. The French are always prickly, but the Republican administration's attitude seems to have needlessly inflamed public opinion in Germany, the U. K., and Spain, and probably led to the defeat of what would have been a somewhat more sympathetic German government. There were even implications by some neoconservatives, before they saw how difficult even an Iraq occupation was, that they'd be next dealing with Syria and Iran.
And for needlessly antagonizing countries, how about labeling them an "axis of evil?" All such name calling does is get their backs up.

The same general foreign policy could have been followed without needlessly aggravating countries around the world. When you have such enormous power it isn't necessary to be obnoxious in diplomacy.

Dúnedain · 12-02-2003, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gaffer
(PS - "England" is just one of the four countries that makes up "Britain")

I am well aware, I said England that last time, because you said you were from there...Thanks for thinking I am ignorant though

Dúnedain · 12-02-2003, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gaffer
One of the hideous things Bliar has done is replace the hereditary Lords with appointed ones, thus swapping a system of inherited power for one of patronage.

Why is this a bad thing? I would think that in today's society you would rather not have people ruling through inheritance...that goes back to the whole monarchy thing, where the "Lords" are better than the population and should therefore be of the ruling class, because they were born into it...That's a complete joke today, I would think you would want that gone...

The Gaffer · 12-02-2003, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I am well aware, I said England that last time, because you said you were from there...Thanks for thinking I am ignorant though

I didn't think you were ignorant.

Quote:

Originally posted by JerseyDevil

Weren't you the one who stated that the US supported the IRA?

Yes I wasn't.

I said they got funding from people in the US and clarified that I did not mean the US government.

A right bunch of mind readers we've got in here. No need to argue: you lot can whip up an argument all on your own. Not winning it? Oh, that's easy, just pretend the other bloke said something he didn't.

As for Iraq, well clearly the sooner they get self-government the better. It's great that Saddam is gone but before you get on your "moral police" high horse remember who kept him there in the 80s.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when they vote in an Islamist government.

The Gaffer · 12-02-2003, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Why is this a bad thing? I would think that in today's society you would rather not have people ruling through inheritance...that goes back to the whole monarchy thing, where the "Lords" are better than the population and should therefore be of the ruling class, because they were born into it...That's a complete joke today, I would think you would want that gone...

Yes, that's why it's hideous: to replace an anachronism like that with another anachronism (one full of political appointees), when you've promised the electorate you'd create a truly democratic upper house.

12-02-2003, 04:29 PM	#196
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	I'm afraid that complaining about not being appreciated misses a key reason for some of the resentment of use of American power by the current crew in Washington, the incredible arrogance and contempt they exhibit when their radical neoconservative philosophy is questioned in any way. Remember, Bush II said before getting to occupy the White House that he would be humble in conducting foreign affairs, but he, and even more Rumsfeld and Chaney, then exhibited no tolerance for real discussion and consideration for others views. The French are always prickly, but the Republican administration's attitude seems to have needlessly inflamed public opinion in Germany, the U. K., and Spain, and probably led to the defeat of what would have been a somewhat more sympathetic German government. There were even implications by some neoconservatives, before they saw how difficult even an Iraq occupation was, that they'd be next dealing with Syria and Iran. And for needlessly antagonizing countries, how about labeling them an "axis of evil?" All such name calling does is get their backs up. The same general foreign policy could have been followed without needlessly aggravating countries around the world. When you have such enormous power it isn't necessary to be obnoxious in diplomacy. __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva!

12-02-2003, 01:51 PM	#191
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	I'm anxious for Iraq to govern itself. I want to see a government established soon of their people, by their people and for their people. I know they will have a hard time in the beginning, but so did other countries, including the US, at first. It will be a struggle for them, and worse, I think, because of the volitility of the area around them. I just hope the rest of the world will be more helpful to Iraq in their transition from dictatorship to a democracy. The war is done, whether I supported it or not. I suppose then its time to help and not bitch about it.