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11-20-2003, 04:55 PM
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#181 |
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High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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You sure? Cause the Numenoreans got it from the Elves, then fiddled with it a little - and I thought for sure that's where the hobbits picked it up...
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11-20-2003, 04:56 PM
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#182 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
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The Eldar?
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11-20-2003, 04:56 PM
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#183 | |
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High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Númenórë <--United States of America
Posts: 1,947
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Quote:
__________________
'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen
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11-20-2003, 04:58 PM
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#184 | |
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High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Númenórë <--United States of America
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Quote:
nope 
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen
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11-20-2003, 04:59 PM
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#185 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: charlotte, n.c.
Posts: 1,081
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Hmm, the Breelanders?
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11-20-2003, 05:01 PM
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#186 |
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High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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Should I have said... Dunedain?
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11-20-2003, 05:02 PM
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#187 | |
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High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Númenórë <--United States of America
Posts: 1,947
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Quote:
__________________
'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen
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11-20-2003, 05:04 PM
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#188 | |
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High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Númenórë <--United States of America
Posts: 1,947
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Just to quote it, under Appendix D:
Quote:
__________________
'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen
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11-20-2003, 05:09 PM
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#189 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
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With all the respect, you should've say 'Numenorians' is correct, becuase he obviously didn't mean to the Numenorians that lived in Numenore. (Right?)
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11-20-2003, 05:11 PM
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#190 |
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High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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Sheesh - technicality... so LIKE you!
And I don't know how to do the letter with those funny things over 'em... and they seem somehow quite "un-American" to me, you know!  OK - let's do another calendar question: Numenoreans / Dunedain had 7 days in their week: In order, from Saturday thru Friday, what did each day honor? |
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11-20-2003, 05:15 PM
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#191 | |
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High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Númenórë <--United States of America
Posts: 1,947
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Quote:
The passage doesn't say numenorians. It says Dúnedain...Whether they are of Numenorian decent or not, has nothing to do with it. The shire calendar wasn't changed because someone from Numenor came to Middle Earth to fix it for them, it was changed from the Dúnedain who were residing in the old Northern Kingdom...
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen
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11-20-2003, 05:20 PM
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#192 | |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
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Quote:
Yeah.. now let's stop arguing(sp.) here. Valandil ask a question! |
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11-20-2003, 05:21 PM
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#193 |
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High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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Rad-t-Brown,
Look up, I already did! |
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11-20-2003, 05:22 PM
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#194 | |
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High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Númenórë <--United States of America
Posts: 1,947
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Quote:
__________________
'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen
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11-20-2003, 05:32 PM
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#195 | |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
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Quote:
 Sorry. I'm not sure... not sure what you meant... Sterrendei - stars, Sunnendei - sun, Monendei - moon, Trewesdei - trees, Hevenesdei - sky, Meresdi - sea, Highdei - chief days??? |
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11-20-2003, 05:46 PM
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#196 |
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High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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You HAD to peek for all that!
 It's OK though. I'll say correct - my version calls the 'Friday' equivalent a "high day" - rather than "chief" - I'm going off memory here, but I think it refers to the Valar. There's an interesting distinction in the "trees" day from the Elvish to the Numenorean, but we can save that for another trivia question one day! (and I won't count off for that one today!) Oh - Dunedain... I guess I've generally considered "Numenorean" and "Dunedain" to be synonymous... maybe they technically are not though. I'll have to dig into the uses there - or do you know off-hand; are the "Dunedain" defined as "Numenoreans in Exile" - ie, after the Akabelleth (SP?)??? JRRT does so much duplicate naming of peoples and persons... Radagast the Brown: your go! |
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11-20-2003, 05:49 PM
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#197 | |
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High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Númenórë <--United States of America
Posts: 1,947
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Quote:
Basically this is the best way to explain it: Dúnedain is a term used in Middle-earth for the Men of Númenor and (especially) their descendants in Arnor and Gondor...
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen
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11-20-2003, 05:54 PM
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#198 |
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High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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Hmmm... yes, I guess those in Umbar, for instance, were called "Black Numenoreans" (not from their skin tone - but from being of the "King's Men" persuasion - in rebellion attitude-wise to the Valar) - and never seem to be included in the term "Dunedain"
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11-21-2003, 06:54 AM
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#199 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
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Dunedain = The Edain of the West, people of Nuenore and their descendants in Middle Earth. (as you said Dunedain)
Nuenorians = people of Numenore, (obviously). So there is a difference definition. The Black Numenorian = Numenorioans from the King Loyals and Eldar Haters, that settled in Middle Earth, especially in Umbar; enemies of Gondor. (from my index in LOTR) Edit - Question: Who is Fram? Last edited by Radagast The Brown : 11-21-2003 at 06:57 AM. |
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11-21-2003, 09:36 AM
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#200 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: charlotte, n.c.
Posts: 1,081
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Fram was the son of Frumgar. A northman from the vales of Anduin. He killed a dragon (Scatha) and kept the loot.
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