Should evolution be taught in schools?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
I agree with Rian, TRUE Christianity is very, very hard. Saying you believe in God and Jesus doesn't mean oof: your life is all happy because God is with you. Since I've become Christian I've had some of the worst trials in my life, including 9-11, and having to overcome some personal issues as well. There are so many things that I want to hold onto and I try to convince myself that they aren't sins, but I know (in my heart of hearts) that they are. It's incredibly frustrating!

Yes, the hardest thing you can ever do in your life, in many ways, but so incredibly, INCREDIBLY the right thing and the best thing! Absolutely no doubt! Lief is right - it is experiential, too. God doesn't ask you to have a blind faith in the sense of checking your brain at the door, but rather to make a reasonable step of faith after serious examination of the topic. And once you're in - Wow.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Lizra
I see what your saying, but I don't feel it's totally logical. Yes, you need the proper tools to do a job. But if the "job" is a make believe ideal, (this so called" spiritual realm", nice words, means nothing), then the logic of the statement looses its meaning for me. An apples to apples thing I guess. I'm not sure what you mean when you say science cannot go for the shovel and seeds. Science disproves "miracles" (for me). I can not think of one "honest to God" miracle that has been documented in modern times. Yet it is common place in the Bible. Why don't you believe the black and gold books of all the other religions?

The reason that science cannot go for the shovel and seeds should be obvious. We're talking about a spiritual realm here, not one that can be proven or disproven. It is something outside of science, and thus must be come to with a different process. There is no way that science can show that such a thing exists or doesn't exist; it would be like trying to plant a garden with technical equipment for constructing a car. Science doesn't disprove miracles. It cannot say yes or no to miracles, but it leaves no likelihood that they should happen. It is a mistake to say that because nothing has been observed in science that can cause a miracle, they cannot happen.

I can fully understand your saying that if this spiritual realm is only nice words, the example cannot work. I can see that you have to have some evidence before believing in something, and all that I am trying to do now is encourage you to go to the place from which you can find that evidence. The place where I and every other Christian who knows God found their evidence: God himself.

In all of the other religions, you have to seek God, and it is usually a search that takes years for you to come close to ascending to his level. Christianity is the only religion where God reaches down to us. And rather than taking years of study, revelation can come the very same day that you ask for it. There are few things that God wants for us to have before we come to him, and these are them: We have to have a sincere desire for the truth, we have to be willing to pray, and we have to be willing to go by his time frame, not our own.

The reason I believe in Christianity was originally because I was brought up that way. That's something I expect most of you can understand. For a long time, I believed simply because of that, and because I believed my parents' accounts. However, my reason for believing changed when I encountered God myself, and heard his voice.

Finally, about miracles again. I have already demonstrated that science doesn't disprove miracles, but simply says that the likelihood of their happening is nonexistent unless some outside influence causes them. If you want accounts of modern day miracles, I can describe to you several books you would be interested in reading. If you want me to list to you some of that material, ask me and I will. RÃ*an probably could also give you some good suggestions as far as those, I expect.

[afro-elf]

But you are begging the question with your faith.

[Lizra]

Sorry LE, You are talking in circles,

The only way you can believe in God, is to believe in God, so believe in God and you will believe in God.

[azalea]

I don't mean to change the subject, but I'm wondering if the agnostics/ atheists think the universe is infinite, and if not, what is at the end? (And don't say "a restaurant!") If this was covered in a similar thread, feel free to ignore this post!

[Lief Erikson]

No, no, no, no, no. I'm not talking in circles. If I've been too verbose to be understood, I apologize.

I'm saying that science cannot prove or disprove Christianity, and if you want it to be proved or disproved for yourself, you have to be willing to look for the truth. You don't have to believe that God exists to ask him if he does exist. So, let's say you don't believe that he exists. But you know your judgement is fallible so you ask him if he exists, and he answers you and says that yes, he does exist. Now you believe that he exists, because you've heard him speak. So now you can have faith.

Is that plainer?

Afro elf, I'm not trying to convince anyone with my faith, I'm simply pointing out the existence of many witnesses, that they might not all be liars, and that if they're not, then Christianity might be something that's worth exploring.

Azalea, there is a theory that connects with the theory of the Big Bang. In that one, everything will stretch to a limit and then gravity pull everything together again, pulling all matter to a point and causing the destruction of everything, and possibly the spreading out of everything again. There might be newer theories.

[azalea]

I just wonder what they say is beyond that limit.

[Lief Erikson]

You know what, I'm a Christian, and I don't have any idea what's outside of the universe either. Or if there is an outside of the universe; you know, explorers of old thought that the earth must have an edge. Now we know that that isn't true. It could be the same with the universe, although of course that's entirely just an idea, nothing more. What do you think is beyond the universe?

[afro-elf]

Yes, I understand you are not trying to convince us;however, you are still beging the question.

But this conversation will not evolve pass this point so we can just nip it here.

As far as the end maybe nothing but void.

[Lief Erikson]

I'm not trying to argue with you either. You know what, Afro elf, Lizra, Cassiopeia, some of your posts here have implied, particularly for Lizra and Cassiopeia, that you want to believe in a loving God such as the Christians believe. You also want to know the truth. This is the largest assumption I have been making in all of my posts here, discussing Christianity and science. I've been assuming that you want to know the truth (Not necessarily only Christian truth), but you want to know what is really true. You, I am also assuming, don't necessarily believe that you have complete truth already. This truth that you lack can be scientific, spiritual, whatever, but I'm assuming that you know that you could be mistaken in what you believe, and you are open to truth that you don't know already.

I haven't been trying to win an argument, here. What I have been trying to do is answer all questions that are asked, questions that might impede you from coming to truth. What I have been trying to do is give you pointers that will guide you in this search for truth, and I hope that your searches will be successful, and that each of your different paths will finally lead you to God.

Some of you might be becoming rather tired of this long deviation from the main topic here, which is "Should evolution be allowed in schools?". This topic, I believe, was a very controversial one from the start, and naturally would lead to all sorts of tangents. So it has.

But now I think we had best return to the main topic. If any of you wants to email me about what we have recently been discussing, or has any further questions, PM me and I will give you my email address and we can continue from there. And whether you do this or not, whether you listen to what I have said or ignore it (Which is your choice, naturally), you are all in my prayers. God bless you.

[afro-elf]

Once again lief its been nice to carry on this discussion with the bashing that tends to happen.

I just find your "ways of knowing the truth" suspect and I am sure you feel mine are two.

again if only all "disagreements be so easy

[Rían]

Originally posted by afro-elf
Yes, I understand you are not trying to convince us;however, you are still beging the question.

A-E, just on a side note, this is kinda silly, but I've never really understood the phrase "begging the question". Could you please explain to me what you mean by that phrase, because I really don't understand. (or just reword your comment so that I can understand it) (BTW, since I've seen you on the "grammar, punct. etc" thread, I assume you meant "begging", not "beging" ) (no offense intended )

[Treebeard's apprentice]

Begging the question, used in the sense of logical arguments, is when you use a premise that is the same as your conclusion. Basically you end up talking in circles.

[Lief Erikson]

Aha, is that what it means???

I actually didn't know either .

Well, I could respond to that easily enough, I expect, but I don't know how many of you are truly interested in continuing along this tangent.

[Rían]

Oh, ok - thanks, TBA. So basically "you have not offered a valid solution to the problem"?

What a funny expression - I wonder where it came from.

So A-E, is that what you meant?

[afro-elf]

BTW, since I've seen you on the "grammar, punct. etc" thread, I assume you meant "begging", not "beging" ) (no offense intended

none taken, I am quite aware of my many culpabilities.

Begging the question can mean arguing in cirlces

or assuming the antecedent

Example"

The bible is the word of God.
How do you know.
Because the bible says
And how do you know that bible is correct?
Because of God....

[Aeryn]

Lief,
You said something about the end of the galaxy, or universe (?). Scientists sent some space robot (or whatever they send into space) that takes pictures for VERY long distance. Anyway, they said that they KNOW where the end of THIS galaxy is, BUT there is some sort of "ice-belt" that seemingly keeps "outside" things from coming in and insdie things coming out (very simplified, sorry, I can't find the newspaper article on the net, so this is completely from memory). If that is what you are talking about.

[Rían]

oh, ok, that's helpful - I really did not know what that expression meant - thanks, A-E

Well, I think I'm about done here. I'd like to comment on one thing that A-E said, though, but not until tonight, when I can get some quiet time (or possibly tomorrow - just remembered I'm babysitting my little niece tonight - my 3 kids plus 1 more - one will be bound to have some problems with something! ) It's been very enjoyable talking with you, people, and I'll try to get my post out soon, for anyone that is interested.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by azalea
I don't mean to change the subject, but I'm wondering if the agnostics/ atheists think the universe is infinite, and if not, what is at the end? (And don't say "a restaurant!") If this was covered in a similar thread, feel free to ignore this post!

The universe is probably not infinite. I don't have time to post the reasons but you can read it in any good astronomy book. I like the idea the the universe is closed and that if you keep going in one direction you will get back to where you have started. I really think it is meaningless to talk about what is outside the universe, because we will never know.

Aeryn, I'm sorry to say this, but I think your ideas are very mixed up. There is an ice belt outside our solar system. I really don't know what you mean. We know what is outside our galaxy: billions and billions of other galaxies.

[Lief Erikson]

Doesn't that make one feel small?



Afro elf, I think you'll have to explain better what your problem is with what I've been saying, if you want me to be able to respond to it.

And about the thing you posted about the Bible . . . It is called the Word of God for a reason. Both because it is true, and also because the Lord can still speak through it. It isn't simply because the Bible says that it's the Word of God that we believe it is; it's because God still talks through those words of the past to speak to us in the present. Hearing him talk through his Word is another spiritual experience, but I think whoever wrote up that circular argument had the facts wrong, or didn't quite know what they were talking about.