Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

[Artanis]

Very welcome Nanedhel.

I should have posted my insightful thoughts here, but right now I'm so busy in RL I've hardly time to get in here at all ....

[Attalus]

yes, welcome to the Moot, Nanedhel. Anybody that makes their first post on a thread like this is all right in my book.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Attalus

yes, welcome to the Moot, Nanedhel. Anybody that makes their first post on a thread like this is all right in my book.

Hear hear!!!!

[Findegil]

I never saw Aegnors action as selfish. Seen from the outside he did step back from Andreth, which did hurt her (and him), but we did not learn why exactly he did it. Certainly not to find his luck with some elvish woman (which I would call selfish indeed) as Finrod assured Andreth. The only reason Finrod gives is the habit of Elves not marry in war-time. Finrod doth not tell if the hinted forsight of Aegnors death was his own or the one of his brother - thus I will not speculat on this.
What we are sure of is that Aegnor was a warrior, a champion of the Elves. I think that he saw his duty in the protection of his people in Dorthonion. To marry Andreth would have bound part of his abillity and potential and taken it away from the task he saw as his duty. I don't see how you can sink it selfish to put duty above personal desire.

As I see the storys told in the Athrabeth and the story of Adanel the final fate of Men was never really changed. Only the way they archieved it was changed. The underlying conception is clearly christian and thus the idea to look at Adam and Eve before the fall is a good idea but does not bring us further since the Bible didn't give an account of the fate any unfallen men would have been expirenced. But what it gives is an account of the resurection after reconcilation. At least at Tolkiens times this was interpreted as a resurection in incarnated form and not in spirit only. If we try to realte this with what Finrod precifed that men are only guest and are meant to go beyond the world, and that the natural state of an incarnate being (the only one in which he could find a final happiness) would be incarnated, this must mean that in the original state man would come to that state (out side time and space) as incarnated beings with out death. (This is hard to belive but is falisvied - at least for christains - by Jesus and Maria.) After the fall we see man in the situation known so well to us: they dy to be judge by the creator and then after some progatory be resurected in bodily form, but not on earth but in paradise.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Artanis]

Findegil, as usual with your posts I'm left in thoughtfulness. And again I realise that there are layers in Tolkiens writings that escapes me because I'm not a Christian and though I have some knowledge I do not associate the stories with Christian conceptions.

So you have come to the same conclusion as Finrod - what would have happened to Men unfallen in Arda is similar to what happened to virgin Mary in the Catholic faith. But you do not think that they were in origin 'immortal' within Arda, as Adanel claims?

I agree that Aegnor wasn't behaving out of selfishness, he was looking at the situation out of an Elvish point of view, naturally enough. He just didn't think of asking Andreth about her thoughts on the matter. Which I think may be called inconsiderate, at least.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I agree that Aegnor wasn't behaving out of selfishness, he was looking at the situation out of an Elvish point of view, naturally enough. He just didn't think of asking Andreth about her thoughts on the matter. Which I think may be called inconsiderate, at least.

Perhaps he did think of asking her thoughts on the matter and then thought better of it, thinking that her thoughts would only convince him to stay with her, which he surely wanted to do, but knew it was not the best choice for either of them in his mind. By asking her, he would have been to tempted to stay. I don't know if that makes him inconsiderate, but placed him in a position of making what he thought was the best choice for both of them, but painful also. He must have known something that would cause their togetherness to come to a grievous end and chose to have the unfinished, but fair memory of what they did share. So it comes down to him choosing the less of two evils, both choices bad, both painful, but the choice taken, less so.

I think what Finrod says about Aegnor not taking the hand of a bride of his own kin for Andreth's sake, and also choosing not to return to life, shows just how devoted his love for her was.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Perhaps he did think of asking her thoughts on the matter and then thought better of it, thinking that her thoughts would only convince him to stay with her, which he surely wanted to do, but knew it was not the best choice for either of them in his mind. By asking her, he would have been to tempted to stay. I don't know if that makes him inconsiderate, but placed him in a position of making what he thought was the best choice for both of them, but painful also. He must have known something that would cause their togetherness to come to a grievous end and chose to have the unfinished, but fair memory of what they did share. So it comes down to him choosing the less of two evils, both choices bad, both painful, but the choice taken, less so.

But by doing so, he denied Andreth to take part in the decision. He left her with one option only, to accept the choice he had made. I think it is not the fact that he left her which made her bitter, I think it was that he left her without speaking to her first, without any explanation. And how could he be so sure about what was the best choice for them. How could he think that he had sufficient knowledge about the customs, beliefs and ways of life of Men to choose the best thing for her? Even Finrod didn't have that insight. Aegnor knew the best choice for himself, but he could not claim to know the best choice for her. If he did think so, then it would indeed be a sign of the lordly Elvish attitude towards Men that Andreth speaks of.

I think that if Aegnor had spoken to her and discussed the matter with her, then she would still be grieved at their parting, but maybe she would have gained a better understanding of his reasons, and she could have escaped the bitterness.

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

I think what Finrod says about Aegnor not taking the hand of a bride of his own kin for Andreth's sake, and also choosing not to return to life, shows just how devoted his love for her was.

I have never questioned the love he had for her, so I agree completely with this. Also knowing what a serious matter it was for the Elves to never be reincarnated.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think it was that he left her without speaking to her first, without any explanation.

Well, I get the feeling that he felt that had he spoke to her about it, she would not have accepted it, and would have convinced him otherwise, which I think he felt would have been unwise.

And how could he be so sure about what was the best choice for them. How could he think that he had sufficient knowledge about the customs, beliefs and ways of life of Men to choose the best thing for her? Even Finrod didn't have that insight.

I don't think he thought he knew more about the customs and ways of Men more than she did, nor did he base his choice on that, but on a more deeper and individual choice for both their sakes. All he needed to know was that he was immortal and she was not and that his life ended with Arda, and she went beyond. As Finrod said: they were devided by a gulf.

Aegnor knew the best choice for himself, but he could not claim to know the best choice for her. If he did think so, then it would indeed be a sign of the lordly Elvish attitude towards Men that Andreth speaks of.

I don't think it had much to do with being lordly. I think he wanted to spare her from a greater loss in the end and that loss would have been for eternity as far as the division of their fates. In many ways, I think they both suffered great heartbreak, but that Aegnor suffered the greater hurt to spare her a greater or equal hurt as his by the choice he made.

[Findegil]

Posted by Artanis:

So you have come to the same conclusion as Finrod - what would have happened to Men unfallen in Arda is similar to what happened to virgin Mary in the Catholic faith. But you do not think that they were in origin 'immortal' within Arda, as Adanel claims?

Yes to the first sentence. And also yes to the second. I don't think they would haven been 'immortal' within Arda. They were seeking elsewhere, as the Elves did clearly perceive. Thus I think, they would have been in situation more like that of the Númenóreans: After some time life would have become tiresome to them (as it did to the Elves and even to the Ainu in Arda) and then they would have left Arda willingly. Thus we can already see a redemption in part in the Edain as is it is told of Bëor:

… but at last Bëor the Old died when he had lived three and ninety years, for four and forty of which he had served King Felagund. And when he lay dead, of no wound or grief, but stricken by age, the Eldar saw for the first time the swift waning of the life of Men, and the death of weariness which they knew not in themselves; and they grieved greatly for the loss of their friends. But Bëor at the last had relinquished his life willingly and passed in peace; and the Eldar wondered much at the strange fate of Men, for in all their lore there was no account of it, and its end was hidden from them.

When the Edain returned to the allegiance with Eru the punishment was not lifted completely but it was somewhat lifted: when they had lived their life they could accept their fate. Later when the Edain where rewarded for their suffering in the war with Morgoth the punishment was lifted even more, in my view they got even a stronger gift than the first un-fallen Man had lost: They could not only accept their fate as the Edain in Beleriand they were allowed to set the time for it for themselves. And in comparison with the gift of the un-fallen Man they had the strength to receive the gift of Eru even in facing a disembodiment (which is death).

About Anderth and Aegnor: We do not know what the state of affairs was when Aegnor draw back. It seems clear to me, from what is told that they had as jet not spoken to each other about anything. I think that both had received signals from each other that their feelings for each other was similar. But that's what I think was all that happened between them.
If the affair got further I would find it un-understandable why Aegnor left her without a word. But consider the situation in is manner: You love some one. You have the clear feeling that she has some sympathy for you too. But you two have never openly spoken about it as jet. Now you feel the time has come either to declare yourself (which traditionally would be the part of the man, and is so in all love-stories Tolkien presented to us) or to draw back. Your duty stands against the connection and being ever in danger to be killed (as a warrior clearly is) the connection could soon bring great lose to your beloved. Also you know that in the end there is no chance for a happy end even if fate would spare you from death in battle. After a considerable short time your beloved would be forced to leave you forever. The destination she would go to is unknown to you, only that you are sure that you could never reach her again. Now you are not sure if she would really agree to the connection at all. At least she did know that possibly you will outlive her by fare, and could suspect you of take her now and some one else later (as Andreth does really suggest to Finrod, but would not be acceptable for any one).
I do not know which way you would take, but if in such a situation you would decide to draw back and sacrifice your love for your duty, then to talk to your beloved about all you feel, would even rob her of the small chance that she would accept your decision and turn to someone else. By talking to her you would assure her of your love. By that you would clearly make the bound between you stronger for her. Thus even if she would have denied the connection at first hand she would now feel deprived and left-allone.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Rían]

(is enjoying reading the posts but still too busy to add her own thoughts...)

[Artanis]

Findegil, I agree that the immortality of Men within Arda never existed, and I think that Adanel's story had developed through generations, having its origin in the fact that the lifespan of Men was shortened under the dominion of Morgoth, and in their envy of the immortality of the Elves. But I'm not convinced that the reduction in lifespan of Men was a punishment imposed on them by Eru. I think it may be seen as a natural consequence of their close aquaintance with Morgoth. In another thread, Lefty said that the fëar of Elves had the power to impose long endurance into their bodies, which I think is confirmed by this quote from the Athrabeth:

The Elves observed that all Men died (a fact confirmed by Men). They therefore deduced that this was 'natural' to Men (sc. was by the design of Eru), and supposed that the brevity of human life was due to this character of the human fea: that it was not designed to stay long in Arda. Whereas their own fear, being designed to remain in Arda to its end, imposed long endurance on their bodies; for they were (as a fact of experience) in far greater control of them.

But Men have fëar too, so we may deduce that the fëar of Men have a similar power, only not so strong. So what I think is that under the dominion of Morgoth, the fëar of Men were much weakened, and therefore were unable, or perhaps even did not have the desire, to keep the body alive for more than a short period of time. When the Edain escaped from Morgoth and into Beleriand, this process was reversed, and I think reversed faster because of their friendship with the Elves. It is similar to what happened with the Elves' fëar in Valinor, they were strenghtened by the Light and the presence of the Ainur. Eru did not give immortality to Men, but he may originally have designed them to have long lifespans, longer than they had in Beleriand. Perhaps the lifespan of the Númenoreans were close to what Eru originally intented.

There's more I'd like to say, but I haven't got time right now. Later.

[Findegil]

I would agreed with you Artanis had not Andreth denied exactly your conclusion so strongly:

'That I can well believe,' said Finrod: 'that your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda was tainted by him, before ye or we came forth and drew our hroar and their sustenance therefrom: all save only maybe Aman before he came there.(1) For know, it is not otherwise with the Quendi (2) themselves: their health and stature is diminished. Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change (3) of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning. And that, I judge, must forebode that they will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be, though this may not be clearly revealed for many long years.
'And likewise with the hroar of Men, they are weaker than they should be. Thus it comes to pass that here in the West, to which of old his power scarcely extended, they have more health, as you say.'
'Nay, nay!' said Andreth. 'You do not understand my words. For you are ever in one mind, my lord: the Elves are the Elves, and Men are Men, and though they have a common Enemy, by whom both are injured, still the ordained interval remains between the lords and the humble, the firstcomers high and enduring, the followers lowly and of brief service.
'That is not the voice that the Wise hear out of the darkness and from beyond it. Nay, lord, the Wise among Men say: "We were not made for death, nor born ever to die. Death was imposed upon us." And behold! the fear of it is with us always, and we flee from it for ever as the hart from the hunter. But for myself I deem that we cannot escape within this world, nay, not even if we could come to the Light beyond the Sea, or that Aman of which ye tell. In that hope we set out and have journeyed through many lives of Men; but the hope was vain. So said the Wise, but that did not stay the march, for as I have said, they are little heeded. And lo! we have fled from the Shadow to the last shores of Middle-earth, to find only that it is here before us!'

Thus Andreth was crystally clear that men in their original state would not have suffered a separation between fea and hrora.
She might have been wrong, but considering that Tolkien was a devoted catholic Christian and thus did belief in the ascension of Mariä I think that the Athrabeth is meant to express more than weakening of the hora and fea by the influence of Morgoth.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Rían]

OK, the school's candy sale work has gone way down, so I'll try to catch up here

I just did a quick scan over Athrabeth ....

One thing that's really rather unusual for me about this work is the strong sense of ... I'm not quite sure how to word it, but something like the strong sense of place I get when I read this work. Tolkien is so descriptive, that we usually all have pictures in our heads of the places that the people live in and travel thru, but this work is just in a class by itself - I can almost feel the warmth of the fire and hear its crackle, and see Andreth sitting, with sad eyes, and Finrod walking slowly around the room ...

I don't know what it is, but this story just generates such strong sensory feelings for me. Does anyone else feel that way?

Another note - Finrod uses the name "Melkor" with Andreth. I always thought the Elves refused to call him by that name. Finrod Edennil (Friend of Men), however, was unusual for an Elf, in that he was very intrested in Men. Maybe he just used "Melkor" around Men. Anyway, I found it interesting.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Findegil

I never saw Aegnors action as selfish. Seen from the outside he did step back from Andreth, which did hurt her (and him), but we did not learn why exactly he did it. Certainly not to find his luck with some elvish woman (which I would call selfish indeed) as Finrod assured Andreth. The only reason Finrod gives is the habit of Elves not marry in war-time.

I think there's another reason given, and a very good one, in elvish eyes, altho perhaps not in human. I think the discussion on "what will happen when Andreth gets old?" is very important. In HER eyes, it's worth it to have a few years with him, and then she says when she got old she wouldn't have "troubled him", and wouldn't have "hobbled" after him. So she is thinking "let's enjoy the few years we have, then I'll release you - go on ahead!"

But what she doesn't realize is that Aegnor, because of who and what he is, couldn't "go on ahead!" ... As Finrod says, "But do you think of him? He would not have run before thee. He would have stayed at thy side to uphold thee. Then pity thou wouldst have had in every hour, pity inescapable. He would not have thee so shamed."

I think that's an extremely important reason why Aegnor left. I think Finrod gave the "easy" reason first - elves don't wed in war time, and then when that wasn't enough, he decided to give the "harder" reason. And actually, I think this second reason had more weight with Aegnor, altho I could be wrong. Opinions?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, I think that's a good point Rian. In a way, Finrod seems to try to point out that Andreth needs to see Aegnor's reasoning as much as she wants Finrod to see hers. Aegnor seems to have felt that spending a few good years and then parting would not be possible to do and if it were, it would be even more grievous to them both, than to just not get involved at all. As Finrod explains that the fair but unfinished memory would be better than a memory that goes on to a grievous end.

[Rían]

I think both Aegnor and Andreth would have chosen what they honestly felt was best for the other person. But their opinions on what was best are just different, because Elves and Humans see things differently. As Finrod says, "Alas! I fear the truth will not satisfy thee. The Eldar have one kind, and ye another, and each judges the others by themselves - until they learn, as few do."

I agree with what you said, that Aegnor feels that "it would be even more grievous to them both" to do what Andreth wants. Andreth disagrees. Unfortunately her side of the choice leaves her unable to do anything about it.

[Findegil]

That is clearly a good point, RÃ*an!

Maybe Aegnor did really perceived that in the end the relationship would be hard to bear for Andreth because she would have been bound to him and he would not depart from her until she would be dead.

But then, would you call his decision good on this basis? I would doubt it at least. Aegnor was willing to spend the time of Andreth live with her, and I think Andreth would have learned to endure his pity or even to see it as a sign of affection as it would clearly have been. (In the end, as we know, he was killed in battle before her death and at least than when he would have been taken away she would have missed his affectionate pity, I would begged.)

Thus I still judge that this was not a good reason for Aegnor leafing her, even if that reasoning could have been a comfort to Andreth in the state of mind she was in during the Athrabeth.

Still the tale has a for-shadow of a happy end (which would have been what ever Aegnor and Andreth did in this world): "But you are not for Arda. Whither you go may you find light. Await us there, my brother - and me."

Respectfully
Findegil

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Findegil

That is clearly a good point, RÃ*an!

Danke schoen, mein freund
*pardon my rusty German, but I thought you might enjoy something in your language, even if it's not quite right *

But then, would you call his decision good on this basis? I would doubt it at least. Aegnor was willing to spend the time of Andreth live with her, and I think Andreth would have learned to endure his pity or even to see it as a sign of affection as it would clearly have been.

I still think, given what we know of elves in general and Aegnor in particular (he seemed to have a really strong sense of justice) that Aegnor's motives for the decision were good ones. However, his idea of what was best for the situation, even given good motives, differed from what Andreth's ideas were.

And personally, from reading the Athrabeth quite a few times, and getting a sense of her personality, I think that Andreth would NOT have learned to endure his pity. I think it would have eventually caused her to wish they had not married, or to wish for her death, or to even take her own life. (Obviously these are just my opinions and I have no idea what would have "really happened" - esp. since these aren't real people! But they sure seem like they are!)

Thus I still judge that this was not a good reason for Aegnor leafing her, even if that reasoning could have been a comfort to Andreth in the state of mind she was in during the Athrabeth.

So I differ from you, and I think that Aegnor thought those reasons were good ones, altho Andreth disagrees.

Still the tale has a for-shadow of a happy end (which would have been what ever Aegnor and Andreth did in this world): "But you are not for Arda. Whither you go may you find light. Await us there, my brother - and me."

Yes, a very intriguing ending! And hope for happiness

Respectfully
Findegil

I always enjoy your posts

[Findegil]

Danke schoen, mein freund
*pardon my rusty German, but I thought you might enjoy something in your language, even if it's not quite right *

Oh, ich habe zu danken! Und Dein Deutsch ist beinahe Perfekt.

I don't think that we diver too much. At least we agree that we cannot know how things would have gone, had Aegnor not left Andreth. What we know is that he found his reasons sufficient to leave Andreth in the way he did. That said it does not matter if he was wrong or right. He did what he did and he felt it was the right thing to do in that moment.
And it might be that we are no good judges in his part at all, since we do not have enough knowledge about Elves at all. So we should rather look at Finrod, how has a better knowledge and showed much understanding for his brother.

And personally, from reading the Athrabeth quite a few times, and getting a sense of her personality, I think that Andreth would NOT have learned to endure his pity. I think it would have eventually caused her to wish they had not married, or to wish for her death, or to even take her own life.

I did obviously not see it that way and we have to agree that we disagree her. But we must take into account that we see her only after long years of lonely bitterness in which she had pondered the decision of Aegnor not knowing his reason for it. (It is much easier to say, I would have let him go when the time would have come when you never had been really united with your beloved, then to do that really after years of partnership. Look at Arwen as an example.)
But if you are right, than Aegnor was quiet right to leave Andreth , for when that was the way Andreth was like than she is in my view in no way able to handle any stable partnership. (That last argument is a bit overdone, but it is still in a way to the point.)

Respectfully
Findegil

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, I think we are talking about two people here that are as different as night and day, not only in cultures, but in fate. It is true that neither had a total understanding of the other's, but, both were living in Arda. One had already lived a substantial amount of time. The other brief and even at her end, a brief existance in comparison to his. Who is wiser then? Should the outcome of their destiny with one another be brought about by his decision alone, which is based perhaps more wisely, or her decision, which is based more individually? He did, I think, what he thought was best for both. I think she simply did not understand how hard it would be when time went by. The fact of her ageing and him not, the fact that she would die and he may not, are considerations that he took into account. It's easy for her to say to Finrod that she would not have troubled Aegnor after her short youth was spent, than to have faced the actual event. She loved him deeply. Could she then have parted from him so easily for his sake? I don't think so, not as long as she was alive. I think he made his decision and not lightly, for both their sakes, because she couldn't have. Had he stayed with her and forsaken his kin and the war and perhaps had children, they (the children) would have been the first Halfelven. Would they have had a choice? The outcome would have been so different. What "high purpose of doom" did this union have?