U.S. election races...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

It won't be, and can't....it's what I said before in the homosexual marriage thread. Atheism/Humanism is considered "neutral", and therefore teachable.

Atheism and humanism are by no means convertible, Hector.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Atheism and humanism are by no means convertible, Hector.

The point is that they are both seen as "neutral" beliefs, not that they are the same thing.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

It already has been. Torcaso V. Watkins (61) Besides that tons of Humanist organizations have religious tax exemptions.

Oh Please. That decision prohibited the government from using religious faith as one of the criteria for assuming public office. It didnt say ANYTHING about teaching "secular humanism" in schools...

Have a look at this:

This is frequently cited by people on the religious right as that the Supreme Court has declared Secular Humanism to be a religion, but such people are simply unaware of the fact that dicta have no legal force. Ignoring this uncomfortable fact, however, allows them to argue that any hint of Secular Humanism in schools is a violation of the separation of church and state - an ironic argument, since they would be happy to dispense with separation anyway.

[hectorberlioz]

Not that any seperation exists in the constitution anyways....

My point at least, is not whether it was made legal or not, but whether it really is the thing being taught.

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Oh Please. That decision prohibited the government from using religious faith as one of the criteria for assuming public office. It didnt say ANYTHING about teaching "secular humanism" in schools...

No but it acknowledges as a religion(in court as you so wished ).

[hectorberlioz]

Back to politics,

I heard on ABC News this morning that Senator Tim Johnson of South Dakota is in critical condition. So I guess whats on all our minds is; will he be deemed unable to carry out senatorial duties, and will the Governor choose someone who will tip the balance of the Senate in favor of the Reps?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

No but it acknowledges as a religion(in court as you so wished ).

Where does it do that exactly?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I heard on ABC News this morning that Senator Tim Johnson of South Dakota is in critical condition. So I guess whats on all our minds is; will he be deemed unable to carry out senatorial duties, and will the Governor choose someone who will tip the balance of the Senate in favor of the Reps?

And has anyone investigated to see if there were any traces of polonium-210 in him and if he had been in the presence of Dick Cheney lately?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

And has anyone investigated to see if there were any traces of polonium-210 in him and if he had been in the presence of Dick Cheney lately?

You're wondering? Some of us on this side have wondered if Bush lost the midterms on purpose so he could pass an amnesty bill with the Dems (which I am not that much opposed to).

in which case, he changed his mind, or as you say; Dick Cheney

[hectorberlioz]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....




Hillary: Should I push him off the podium?

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Where does it do that exactly?

Here.

Originally Posted by Torcaso V. Watkins

Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others.

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....




Hillary: Should I push him off the podium?

WOW she looks scary in that picture..

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

Here.

Originally Posted by Torcaso V. Watkins
Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others.

1. Thats clearly been shown to be dicta (obiter dicta). Nothing more. And therefore not a legally setting precedent.

2. Being an atheist does not = being a secular humanist.

3. Evolution does not = secular humanism

So the whole argument is silly and completely without merit.

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

WOW she looks scary in that picture..

Well, Senator McCain at least should be scared... Newsweek poll shows Hilary beats Saint John 50/43.

Actually, Bush has torpedoed McCain by planning to send in more troops to Iraq. Senator John specifically said that 20,000 more troops would turn the tide, believing that at that time Bush would follow the recommendations of the Baker-Hamilton Report to cut US troops, leaving McCain to take over the "stabbed-in-the-back" legend.

After the "surge" turns out to be useless, McCain is left high and dry, pushing a failed policy that already only 11% of the American people support.

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

1. Thats clearly been shown to be dicta (obiter dicta). Nothing more. And therefore not a legally setting precedent.

2. Being an atheist does not = being a secular humanist.

3. Evolution does not = secular humanism

So the whole argument is silly and completely without merit.

1. The IRS gives Secular Humanist Organizations religious tax exemptions. Other legal cases have noted that Secular Humanism is a religion (the Torcaso/Watkins was the closest one I had at hand).

2. ??? How does that pertain?

3. Huxley, Kurtz and others can be quoted on the fact that naturalistic explanations for origins are integral to secular humanist theory( dare I say religion), i.e. spontaneous generation, macro-evolution, its a basically a piece of their theology. That is not the only way in which the Secular Humanist worldview manifests itself in schools. Though it certainly can play a large part.

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

Well, Senator McCain at least should be scared... Newsweek poll shows Hilary beats Saint John 50/43.

Actually, Bush has torpedoed McCain by planning to send in more troops to Iraq. Senator John specifically said that 20,000 more troops would turn the tide, believing that at that time Bush would follow the recommendations of the Baker-Hamilton Report to cut US troops, leaving McCain to take over the "stabbed-in-the-back" legend.

After the "surge" turns out to be useless, McCain is left high and dry, pushing a failed policy that already only 11% of the American people support.

I'm thinking Reps will probably turn to Giuliani He'll be able to get the swing vote and moderate Dems. Just so long as they can get the pro-lifers behind him since he's fairly liberal on some social issues.

[hectorberlioz]

Sorry Lizra, but a guy who pulls out of the race after two or three weaks, er weeks...must be, well, week. That's Evan Bayhe.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

1. The IRS gives Secular Humanist Organizations religious tax exemptions. Other legal cases have noted that Secular Humanism is a religion

But AGAIN… how is this relevant to the concept that “they” are teaching secular humanism in schools? Just because its not Christianity doesn’t make it secular humanism by default. Your attempt to co-opt any collection of teaching approaches that you disagree with as a “secular humanist religion” doesn’t work. If my religion says that the laws of physics are wrong but they continue to teach them in school can I say the school is teaching a religion also? How ridiculous.

2. ??? How does that pertain?

Torcaso was an atheist. Not a secular humanist.

3. Huxley, Kurtz and others can be quoted on the fact that naturalistic explanations for origins are integral to secular humanist theory

And divine explanations for origins are integral to both Native American and Christian creationist “theories” but does that mean that the Iroquois were Christians? You are making a mistake in logic (on purpose Im assuming…). Just because A = A doesn’t mean B = A too. Secular humanism can be what ever it wants to be. It doesn’t mean just because evolution is taught in schools that by definition the schools must be promoting “secular humanist religion”. It simply means they are teaching evolution… Evolution is a science. Not a theological platform. Those who (may) use it as such do not impact the fact that it is still science.

That is not the only way in which the Secular Humanist worldview manifests itself in schools. Though it certainly can play a large part.

What ridiculous garbage. You know I think we should stop teaching kids to do the right thing and help others and not to hit back when you are hit because its clearly teaching them virulently Christian concepts on the tax payers dime.

Come on get real. Just because some religions include certain tenants that also happen to show up in our school system in generalized non-theological form does NOT mean the school system is promoting a religion. If the scientific evidence pointed strongly to the Christian concept of creation then THAT’S what would be taught in schools. But guess what. It doesn’t. So we teach what we do have evidence for and that is evolution. Science. Not religion.

[rohirrim TR]

Oh dear, I forgot about this little disscussion How everybody doing?

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

But AGAIN… how is this relevant to the concept that “they” are teaching secular humanism in schools? Just because its not Christianity doesn’t make it secular humanism by default. Your attempt to co-opt any collection of teaching approaches that you disagree with as a “secular humanist religion” doesn’t work. If my religion says that the laws of physics are wrong but they continue to teach them in school can I say the school is teaching a religion also? How ridiculous.

Your going the wrong direction with this. My point was that there is no way to not teach religion. As you yourself pointed out there is no seperation clause in the constitution.

Torcaso was an atheist. Not a secular humanist.

so?? I was reffering to the case's final decision, not views of the participants.

And divine explanations for origins are integral to both Native American and Christian creationist “theories” but does that mean that the Iroquois were Christians? You are making a mistake in logic (on purpose Im assuming…). Just because A = A doesn’t mean B = A too. Secular humanism can be what ever it wants to be. It doesn’t mean just because evolution is taught in schools that by definition the schools must be promoting “secular humanist religion”. It simply means they are teaching evolution… Evolution is a science. Not a theological platform. Those who (may) use it as such do not impact the fact that it is still science.

Theres no need to be insulting. As I said evolution is one piece of it, it touches many areas and without it secular humanism would crumble. What is much more disturbing about secular humanist/secular progressive control of the schools is the globalism and multi-culturalism.

What ridiculous garbage. You know I think we should stop teaching kids to do the right thing and help others and not to hit back when you are hit because its clearly teaching them virulently Christian concepts on the tax payers dime.

Come on get real. Just because some religions include certain tenants that also happen to show up in our school system in generalized non-theological form does NOT mean the school system is promoting a religion. If the scientific evidence pointed strongly to the Christian concept of creation then THAT’S what would be taught in schools. But guess what. It doesn’t. So we teach what we do have evidence for and that is evolution. Science. Not religion.

Don't get started on scientific-ness thats a dead horse that needs no more beating. There is no consensus to that debate as far as i'v seen on the moot.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year a month late!

[hectorberlioz]

Harold Ford jr. got some top democrat position in DC, and now, I hear, he is poised to run for President if he ever does choose. And I thought Obama was going to choose him as a running mate (still might!), but maybe Ford isn't humble enough for that...

Well, I wish him luck, but I won't vote for him, even if he is a "moderate".