Why you believe what you believe I

[Andúril]

While I'm here...

Originally Posted by Lizra

Anduril.....I know you have lost interest in the god/no god debate....do your veiws differ from mine very much?

I don't know.

Maybe I should spend some time reading this thread properly.

I don't know what I believe anymore. I've noticed a distinct drop in motivation to question anything and everything, and whereas I'm not now altogether "gullible" in all areas, I will not spend a second contemplating theology or philosophy or anything of that nature. Just the thought of thinking about these things makes me tired.

And it's not drugs.

What I do know is that I go through phases. My theology/philosophy phase is most likely over.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

6. And to throw in another point to ponder on the question of what makes a Christian - the Bible notes that the demons believe in God, and they believe that Jesus is the Son of God - does that make them Christians?

Hm... maybe you also have to at least try to follow God's wishes - at least what you think they are. I don't think demons imagine they're somehow working with God. IOW you have to try to be a good person.

7. If you were not a Christian, would your life look any different? IOW, how does being a Christian play out in your day-to-day life?

Being a Christian actually doesn't affect my day-to-day life that much; at least, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head.
The difference would be how I grew up. There would be an element of my personality missing, the one that developped as a member of a wonderful church community - Sunday school when I was a kid, and Youth Group when I was a teenager. I made friends I'll never forget there.
But Christianity itself affects my life only in subtle ways. Believing in God affects how I view the world, and how I interact with people - on a subtle level.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Hey Arien, good to see ya! W00t all my Moot buddies are posting again!

thanks I"ve been busy but this discussion has kept my interest

[Pytt]

i don't really know what i belive. but i'm a not christian, thats for sure.
the idea of a god who created everything, thats not so bad. why i belive this?
what was befor the big bang? and where did it came from? i think maybe a sort of godlike creature have created it all. but not the way it's wrutten in the bible. the christian's, with all there missionary work, have in my eyes, done the complete opposite if what they say is right. this is one of the reasons i will not be a christian.

[Nurvingiel]

Missionary work is just a small group of Christianity. It doesn't reflect how many Christians think and feel. I'm not saying you should become a Christian, but I don't think it's fair to judge the whole on what a small part does.
That's like saying football (soccer) players are violent just because a few people kick other players in the ankle on purpose.

EDIT: About the Bible's Creation story; I don't believe that it's meant to be taken literally. It's an analogy for God's beautiful creation.

[inked]

Nurv,
-----------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by RÃ*an
6. And to throw in another point to ponder on the question of what makes a Christian - the Bible notes that the demons believe in God, and they believe that Jesus is the Son of God - does that make them Christians?


Hm... maybe you also have to at least try to follow God's wishes - at least what you think they are. I don't think demons imagine they're somehow working with God. IOW you have to try to be a good person.
------------------

You begin here to sense that being a Christian is a bit more than intellectual belief or assent to the propositions that there is a God and that Jesus is HIs Son. You, by the phrase "have to at least try to follow God's wishes" included the twin concepts of obedience required and willingly followed (or at least attempted). The demons are possessed of knowledge and actively OPPOSE God and DENY Jesus' uniqueness. So demons are not Christians on your own showing. Again on your own showing, Christians are persons who acknowledge God, His ordering of physical and spiritual reality through His Son, and actively seek to yield obedience to Him. This differentiation is a matter of will, a choice.

---------------------
Quote:
7. If you were not a Christian, would your life look any different? IOW, how does being a Christian play out in your day-to-day life?


Being a Christian actually doesn't affect my day-to-day life that much; at least, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head.
The difference would be how I grew up. There would be an element of my personality missing, the one that developped as a member of a wonderful church community - Sunday school when I was a kid, and Youth Group when I was a teenager. I made friends I'll never forget there.
But Christianity itself affects my life only in subtle ways. Believing in God affects how I view the world, and how I interact with people - on a subtle level.
----------------------

If it is so subtle, is it detectable? Is there enough evidence to convict you in a court of law that you are a Christian? This is not just a rhetorical question but a practical one, ever since the Resurrection has been the dominant form of selecting Christians for elimination, persecution, enslavement, or detection.
You obviously have engaged in the Church historically on your witness. The results of committment to Jesus as Saviour and Lord are noted by St. Paul to be the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and producing conviction of sin, repentance, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, temperance, and self-control. It isn't instantaneous nor without fits and starts, but the general progression would be from a focus on self to one on God and others. It also involves on-going discrimination between what is good and acceptable and pleasing God as opposed to the worldly or spiritual distractions which would ignore or oppose Him. I guess another colloquial way of putting it would be, does it look like?...sound like?...walk like?

This contrasts with the demons. Their actions clearly show self will in opposition to God as the settled course of their existence, hence, again, they are not Christians.

Whadda ya think?

[Nurvingiel]

About #6:

Originally Posted by inked

You begin here to sense that being a Christian is a bit more than intellectual belief or assent to the propositions that there is a God and that Jesus is HIs Son. You, by the phrase "have to at least try to follow God's wishes" included the twin concepts of obedience required and willingly followed (or at least attempted). The demons are possessed of knowledge and actively OPPOSE God and DENY Jesus' uniqueness. So demons are not Christians on your own showing. Again on your own showing, Christians are persons who acknowledge God, His ordering of physical and spiritual reality through His Son, and actively seek to yield obedience to Him. This differentiation is a matter of will, a choice.

That's another way to put it! I agree.

Originally Posted by inked

If it is so subtle, is it detectable? Is there enough evidence to convict you in a court of law that you are a Christian? This is not just a rhetorical question but a practical one, ever since the Resurrection has been the dominant form of selecting Christians for elimination, persecution, enslavement, or detection.

I could hide the fact that I'm a Christian if I was being persecuted, but someone might "rat me out" and cite examples of me going to church, youth group and Sunday School. They could ransack my room and find a small picture of Jesus and a cross I made on Palm Sunday. I don't think the kind of evidence that is admissible in court and evidence that one is Christian are necessarily the same, especially enough to convict someone. (Not in modern Canadian courts anyway.)
Well, you kind of lost me in your second paragraph (after the one I quoted), but I agree with you about demons. However, what it takes to be a Christian isn't central to my beliefs.

What is central to my beliefs? I think that respecting all people and cultures, and their uniqueness is necessary to a fulfilling life. I believe we should live as a society in a way the ensures life for future generations, and each other. Though we largely talked about religion, being Christian is not the main focus in my life. Maybe it's more fun to talk about religion rather than the allocation of resources, but I was kind of hoping this wouldn't be another religion thread, at least when I'm up.

[inked]

Nurv,

We should be fortunate enough to have some Christians from the former USSR relate what constitutes evidence in an anti-religious society, some Nigerians relate what constitutes evidence under Islamic Sharia in a divided religious country, and some Arabic Christians tell us about it in Sharia / Islamic dominated countries. Then we could address the legal evidence under differing systems.

Historically in western society we can affirm what was needed for evidence.
Working from the Resurrection outward, we see Stephen stoned for the testimony that Jesus was Messiah and Resurrected and at the right Hand of God (The Book of the Acts of the Apostles) without trial. Then Peter and John before the Sanhedrin (cf. Acts) with a mini-trial. Next, the Romans and Paul (the Epistles) definitely before the Roman system (note his appeal to Caesar). Then the persecutions of Christians under the Romans in the Apocalypse of John (aka the Revelation of St. John) in symbolic language.

Stepping outside the biblical historical referents, we have the works of Josephus and various Roman administrators in differing parts of the Empire describing their methods of interogation and asking for approval, advice, modifications, et cetera. The classic approach was to ask the suspect to offer incense to the cult of the Emperor and deny that Jesus was a god. This was accompanied by rational argument sometimes, but also the gentler techniques of physical encouragement to denial, and frequently death.
You have heard of Polycarp?..burned to death in the Amphitheatre in his 80's for his refusal to deny Christ. And of course, the whole host of martyrs in the Circus by gladiator, beast, fire, and variations of spectacle producing gory deaths for Roman enjoyment.

It may come as a shock to you and many to know that more persons have been martyred for Chrisitianity in the 20th Century than all time since the Resurrection! So testimony to belief is not an idle discussion outside the realm of Western Civ.

I am not asking for you to say you would so do, merely pointing out that the challenge is alive and well and persistent to that degree in our world.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

We should be fortunate enough to have some Christians from the former USSR relate what constitutes evidence in an anti-religious society, some Nigerians relate what constitutes evidence under Islamic Sharia in a divided religious country, and some Arabic Christians tell us about it in Sharia / Islamic dominated countries. Then we could address the legal evidence under differing systems.

Oh I see what you mean now. I cited current Canadian courts because it was alliterative. Just kidding, it's the only one I can speak for.

It may come as a shock to you and many to know that more persons have been martyred for Chrisitianity in the 20th Century than all time since the Resurrection! So testimony to belief is not an idle discussion outside the realm of Western Civ.

I am not asking for you to say you would so do, merely pointing out that the challenge is alive and well and persistent to that degree in our world.

It may come as a shock to you to learn that I actually knew Christians were being persecuted in the 20th century, and still are today.
Incidentally, I did read your whole post. I only have responses to the first and last segments.

[inked]

Nurv.
I took the thread to be about religious belief given the first postings and Rian's expression of intent. But I think your summary:

"What is central to my beliefs? I think that respecting all people and cultures, and their uniqueness is necessary to a fulfilling life. I believe we should live as a society in a way the ensures life for future generations, and each other. Though we largely talked about religion, being Christian is not the main focus in my life. Maybe it's more fun to talk about religion rather than the allocation of resources, but I was kind of hoping this wouldn't be another religion thread, at least when I'm up. "

sums it up for you.

I'll be happy to discuss the allocation of resources, but perhaps we should have that as a thread? Let me know.

By the by, an excellent survey of what we were discussing is a book titled
BY THEIR BLOOD: A History of Martyrdom in the Twentieth Century, IIRC, and I cannot remember the authors' names. Should you have free time ... .

[Rían]

(yes, the intent of this thread IS to discuss beliefs that drive your moral choices/thoughts, commonly referred to as "religious" beliefs, and referred to by me as "worldview" beliefs so we won't waste time arguing about whether the beliefs of aheists/agnostics are "religious" or not! )

Nurvi, are you ready to get down off the hot seat? Do you have any other comments? Does anyone else have any other questions for her?

[Valandil]

A question - or a series:

Are you happy?

If so, what makes you happy?

If not, what do you think will make you happy?

[Lizra]

Do your/can your beliefs change? Is that something you look forward to (changing beliefs) or expect to happen because you are young, or would change be surprising and/or uncomfortable?

[Rían]

*munches popcorn - er, scones*
oooh, good questions!
*is nervous about her turn*

[Pytt]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Missionary work is just a small group of Christianity. It doesn't reflect how many Christians think and feel. I'm not saying you should become a Christian, but I don't think it's fair to judge the whole on what a small part does.
That's like saying football (soccer) players are violent just because a few people kick other players in the ankle on purpose.

EDIT: About the Bible's Creation story; I don't believe that it's meant to be taken literally. It's an analogy for God's beautiful creation.

i am aware of that. but nevertheles, christianity is the only religioon who have driven missionary work that far. and i think christianity have some strange oppinions.

[inked]

Pytt,

It would seem that you are unaware of the missionary activities of Buddhism,
Islam, Mormons, and other nonChristian groups. Ever hear of conversion at the point of the sword? (Islam) Orange-robed panhandlers at airports? (Hare Krishna) Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? (Transcendental Meditation)

The point of course is that most religious faiths are in fact missionary-minded, though none have been as successful as Christianity. Christianity has attained the first truly world wide expansion of a religious faith. It is currently estimated that >25% of the world's population is Christian.

One might well ask why is it that Christianity has been so successful considering that it has conquered Greece, Rome, Europe, Africa, the Americas, Asia, and Russia?

What is it about faith in an obscure Jewish carpenter in an obscure conquered nation at the crossroads of historical battles and trade routes that has enabled it to appeal successfully across so many cultures and time periods?

And missionary activity is on-going today in the great nations below the equator known as the Global South. You may be surprised that it is hotly contested between Islam and Christianity in the African nations as to who is converting most!

If you would like to check the facts, a good reference to begin would be
THE NEXT CHRISTENDOM: The Coming of Global Christianity by Phillip Jenkins
(Oxford University Press, 2002). It contains many salient points and a wealth of references to this phenomenon.

You may be surprised to learn that the Global North is considered fertile missionary territory by both Islam, Christians, Bahai, et cetera, etcetera because of the emptiness of postmodern philosophy and materialism. Europe is Christian in historical name only as is North America. The former USSR is wide open after 70+ years of systematic oppression by Leninist/Stalinist Communism. The great atheistic communistic states of Eastern Europe under Soviet domination the same.

Happy reading and thinking!

[Nurvingiel]

I think my work here is done.

Just kidding, I'll stick around to ask you guys questions. I just wanted to say that. I came, I saw, I confused.

So who wants to go? I'll leave all the excellent questions for the next person to handle.

*gets of the soap box... erm, hot seat*

EDIT: Looks like inked is ready to go, but I also really want to hear from you Rian. Don't be nervous, the hot seat isn't too toasty.

[Rían]

Nurvi/Nurv (BTW,which do you prefer, if any?) - for your swan song, do you want to take a whack at Lizra and Val's excellent questions? (4 and 5 up from your post)

And I had one last question for you - in the light of the many comments on "doing" in the Bible, such as Jesus' comments in Matthew 25 about feeding those who are hungry, etc., don't you think as a Christian you should read the Bible carefully and consistently to find out what a Christian does? See, I think being a Christian is not a set of mental thoughts or pleasant memories, it's a lifestyle based upon a set of beliefs on what you think is true.

Telling someone you're a Christian, IMO, is like telling someone you're a Marine. If they ask you "So, where are you deployed? What do you do?" and you answer "Well, I don't really know, I don't check the instruction booklets or check in with anyone in the Marines, but my dad was in the Marines, and I have nice memories of it!" - don't you think they'd doubt (and rightly) whether you were really in the Marines or not? If you believe in God and Jesus just mentally, and not believing with your life, then how is that really believing?

Belief involves action. It's like someone asking you "do you believe that airplane will get you to Paris?" If you answer "yes", but refuse to get in - well, I don't think you really believe. Or you don't want to go to Paris.

Anyway, those are rather serious questions. I hope they're thought-provoking for you. I really, really enjoy how you're a thinker, and willing to examine things, and speak really honestly! I was very glad when you volunteered to sit in the hot seat. Thank you for fielding our questions so graciously and openly!

If Nurvi prefers to not answer these last coupla questions, who would like to go next?

[Nurvingiel]

Yay, thanks RÃ*an! I would like to answer Lizra and Val's questions. I'll do that tomorrow (it's 2:30am now, how am I sitll here!?), and in the meantime, you can decide the next vict- I mean Hot Seater.

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Nurvi/Nurv (BTW,which do you prefer, if any?) - for your swan song, do you want to take a whack at Lizra and Val's excellent questions? (4 and 5 up from your post)

And in the meantime, who would like to go next?

I'll take the hot seat.