Abortion.

[Lief Erikson]

Insidious, regarding your comments about the brain structure, spinal cord and all that. My point earlier on in bringing up the "would you kill me?" scenario was that we cannot really draw the line between when someone is a human being and when they aren't. The scientific community can't do that either. You responded that I was already born. However, it is clear that in the months immediately before birth, the child is completely human-like. You yourself have said that even in the fetus stage, it is a human fetus we're talking about.

We don't judge people, give them rights or take them, based upon their intelligence level in this country. Mentally retarded people have just as many rights as others. If we make a judgment that the human fetus isn't developed enough to count as a human (a judgment that science cannot make for us), then we're saying that a certain IQ level indicates humanity. There's no way we can draw this line. There's no way we can be sure the line won't be bumped up or down, if we do decide we have the right to draw it. We might start killing the mentally retarded in the future, because they aren't human. Slaves in the past were oppressed because they weren't viewed as human, even though there was no real way of knowing whether they were or not. When is the human fetus no longer a collection of cells but a real person? If we judge it based on intelligence, then a German Shepherd dog should be considered more worth keeping alive then a two year old human. The dog knows more. It is more intelligent. It has a less great capacity to learn, but its knowledge is greater. So judging based upon intelligence doesn't work. If we judge based upon capacity to learn, that also doesn't work, for human embryos are enormously capable of learning. Making the decision is setting ourselves up as God, saying when a person is a person and when he or she isn't. Science cannot make the decision for us. If we decide we have the right to say that the fetus isn't a person yet, it is simply a judgment based upon our own feelings. People are constantly maturing throughout life. A 1 year old is less intelligent then a 30 year old. A -7 months year old is less intelligent then a 1 year old. The problem is that we cannot learn from science whether we're destroying a person at that stage or not, and we also make a judgment that we have the right to judge when someone is a person or not. That could lead to mentally impaired people not standing up to whatever arbitrary IQ test is set up. The IQ test might change also, after a while, when society wants to be able to kill people at more developed ages. It's a sick discussion, but one that's naturally derived from the stance that we have the right to judge on this.

[Lief Erikson]

Okay, maybe I'm not actually done with this debate after all. I'll probably be getting into it more again when I come online once more, next weekend.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I have to agree with you there Lief. Again it all comes down to when is a fetus regarded as a human being if it is at all?

[Pytt]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

BeardofPants, yes, I do think abortion amounts to genocide. I believe it amounts to killing human beings. If this is the case, then we are committing murder on an incredible scale. To me, murder on such a massive scale as this does clearly amount to genocide.

pytt, do you see the fetus as a living child or as just a glob of cells that don't resemble a human being?

depends when. but that is the question, isn't it?
here in norway you got to ask for abortion within the twelveth week after last period before you got pregnant. and then i see the fetus as just a glob of cells, as you call it, and see no wrong in removing it.

[azalea]

Well, that's I think what many people here would like to see. Not a complete ban, but some logical restrictions, such as no third trimester, etc. barring special circumstances. It would be a compromise on both sides.

[Rían]

an update on your tax dollars at work -

at ppgg.org, a planned parenthood site, you can watch a little cartoon, Superhero for Choice, where pro-lifers get blown up by a pro-choice "superhero"

so much for free speech, tolerance and honoring others

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

an update on your tax dollars at work -

at ppgg.org, a planned parenthood site, you can watch a little cartoon, Superhero for Choice, where pro-lifers get blown up by a pro-choice "superhero"

so much for free speech, tolerance and honoring others

that was kinda much, i agree... but it is "free speech"... and as far as "our tax dollars at work"... planned parenthood is a non-profit, so is the NRA, so is every religious organization in america (not all of which are tolerant or honoring either)... our "tax dollars" pay for just about every single opinion, left or right side of the fence, one way or another

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

that was kinda much, i agree...

thank you, and I certainly would condemn any pro-life organization that did something comparable!

...but it is "free speech"...

No, I meant that the Superhero sure didn't facilitate free speech by those that opposed her view!

and as far as "our tax dollars at work"... planned parenthood is a non-profit, so is the NRA, so is every religious organization in america (not all of which are tolerant or honoring either)...

If you look at the annual reports for Planned Parenthood of America, they get 38% of their REVENUE from "government grants and contracts" (they got $265 MILLION from the gov't), and that particular branch of PP got 53% of its REVENUE from "government fees and contracts", according to its annual report (both available on the web).

our "tax dollars" pay for just about every single opinion, left or right side of the fence, one way or another

with the non-profit status, yes.

[inked]

Remember how communism is superior to capitalism and much government to less?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...103579,00.html

"Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country can do to you!"

Intrauterine infanticide by force.

[rohirrim TR]

it is grotesque but no surprise, china seems to be fond of strong arm tactics. remember tiannamen square? my parents were apalled when they learned about chinas policey, and have since then adopted one little girl and are going to adopt another

[HOBBIT]

I've been covering Abortion in my AP American Goverenment class.

Now i see where the right to an abortion comes from. Penumbra Doctrine

Nice to see that Roberts supports the right to privacy, and respects precedents. Probably won't overturn Roe V Wade.

Me personally - I'm more pro-choice. I think that a woman should be allowed to get an abortion definitely in the first 4-5 months, not sure after that.

[Lotesse]

I'm DEFinitely pro-choice, but like you said Hobbit, only within the first trimester. Anything after that seems too much like murder. It's SO difficult to articulate why I feel this way, though, and I KNOW you guys are gonna challenge me to think of an explanation as to why I feel this way. Entmoot can really challenge a person to re-evaluate and closely examine why one thinks the way they do.

[Curubethion]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I'm DEFinitely pro-choice, but like you said Hobbit, only within the first trimester. Anything after that seems too much like murder. It's SO difficult to articulate why I feel this way, though, and I KNOW you guys are gonna challenge me to think of an explanation as to why I feel this way. Entmoot can really challenge a person to re-evaluate and closely examine why one thinks the way they do.

So what exactly happens between the 1st and 2nd? It shouldn't make you change your mind. I'm pro-life all the way.

[Tessar]

Agreed. I'm pro-life.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by inked

Remember how communism is superior to capitalism and much government to less?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...103579,00.html

"Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country can do to you!"

Intrauterine infanticide by force.

*has no words for her thoughts*

[Nurvingiel]

Hu Jintao (China's president) is... there are no words. The people of China need someone to lead, not oppress and murder.

[Spock]

He has no need for someone to help him murder. The number of Christians killed or worse had dramatically increased during his reign.

[Tree Dweller]

Originally Posted by inked

Remember how communism is superior to capitalism and much government to less?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...103579,00.html

"Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country can do to you!"

Intrauterine infanticide by force.

Reading that made me sick to my stomach.

When I was young I had an abortion and have regretted it ever since.
Mine was out of fear and a bit of pressure.
I cannot imagine what the women in China are going through!

[Arien the Maia]

I just have to say, that after going through pregnancy and feeling my little boy move inside me and kick, that it has only strengthened my pro-life view. Even during the first trimester when iw as sick as a dog for most of it, I knew what was causing that and it only made me smile nad say, "for something soooo little, s/he is causing alot of trouble already!" I think it's sad that women in other countries are forced to abort their children...especially if they are having girls(as boys are preferred in China right?)

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

Remember how communism is superior to capitalism and much government to less?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...103579,00.html

"Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country can do to you!"

Intrauterine infanticide by force.

i prefer choice to the government forcing us to do anything in this realm of our lives