Theological Opinions

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by sun-star

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It sounds very nice when you put it like that, but doesn't that mean that people would always be better off marrying someone who is their polar opposite? Speaking from a position of no experience whatsoever I would imagine that a marriage would work best when the partners have some things in common. Is a marriage between two engineers less likely to succeed than a marriage between an engineer and a flower arranger?
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I tend to think opposite or different in nature or personality can be a plus, but that there should be commonly shared interests.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

So RÃ*an, the floor is yours. I don't know anything about this concept and I'd like to hear what you have to say.

I"m back after a busy weekend, and ready to share my thoughts

*reads thru thread* Wow, TONS of interesting thoughts!

I guess I'll start by addressing a few comments. Hang on, getting some quotes...

[LickTheEnvelope]

It's going on the list buddy! (Both books) I actually had the chance to see the Dalai Lama speak in Vancouver! Of course, I went. He spoke about Universal Peace, and it was very... dare I say... enlightening.

Nurv ya crazy Swede when were you here?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Interesting RÃ*an. No time limit or anything. If I had to guess what Biblical submission is? Hm... I really don't have much of idea... but I have to admit that I am suspicious of this idea for two reasons.
1. the word "submission" - this does not have any positive connotations that I'm aware of

How 'bout this : "If you agree to submit to the rules, you may join the wonderful community of Entmoot and talk to many interesting and enjoyable people!"

And this : "If you refuse to submit to the law of prudence when walking on slippery ice, then you will submit to the law of gravity!" (a C.S. Lewis example)

And this : "If you submit to following this recipe, then you will have a delicious cake!"

2. The pretty much non-existant status of women in the different cultures that wrote the Bible and/or were around when it was written. (I know it took a long time to write, but I don't think the status of women improved much over that period of time.)

Yes, the culture when much of the Bible was written definitely suppressed women. That's why the Bible is so wildly radical when you consider the time it's written in! For example, Jewish men would pray every day something along the lines of "thank you, God, that I am NOT a Gentile or a woman!" (Note that this is NOT in the Bible at ALL! It's a Jewish tradition with no Biblical basis.) Yet the Bible contains radical statements that go very against the prevailing bad attitudes about women. Take the simple story that many people are familiar with - Jesus talking to the Samaritan woman at the well. Do you even realize what a radical act that was for Jesus to do? No respectable Jew would have talked to that woman for three very good (to them) reasons - she was a Samaritan, she was a woman, and she was living with a man that she wasn't married to. Yet Jesus didn't care - He talked to her, and treated her with dignity. Jesus had many close friends that were women - look at Mary and Martha (the sisters of Lazarus). The first person that saw Jesus after His resurrection was - a woman! When Jesus was dying on the cross, he took special care to make sure his mother was taken care of (he asked the apostle John to take her into his house). Jesus was a radical guy for the times He lived in - because He was NOT a product of His time! He is timeless truth. Look carefully at how He treats women and you'll see it's pretty radical for His time.

Lastly, I completely fail to see why gender should determine one's role in the marriage. It should be a two-way street (which does seem possible by what you posted previously), but also we should play on our strengths and enjoyments in a marriage, not adhere to some bizarre gender code.

This would be a simple side-effect of design and intention, but I'll get into that later.

In short, I'd say that I see Biblical submission as a strange gender code with no apprent purpose (though I acknowledge that I don't know any possible purpose, this isn't the Bible's fault ).

Let me point out one thing - if there is an even number of people in a group, and the vote splits down the middle, how will you decide on something? Think about it!

That being said, I'll certainly keep and open mind to your explanations. Judgement will be reserved for understanding.

Well, thank you very much for asking my opinion! I'm very flattered, and I'll do my best to explain it. I certainly don't claim to know everything, but I have personal experience in this area, so I'll share it with you guys.

What if she thinks Biblical submission is wrong?

Then she absolutely shouldn't do it!!!

[Nurvingiel]

RÃ*an, I love how you make a post that says you're going to make another post. And the 8000+ post count becomes abundantly clear...

Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope

Nurv ya crazy Swede when were you here?

Hehe I'm actually Canadian, and I go to university in Vancouver. Right now I'm on exchange to Sweden and have been since September. *is a bit flattered to be called a Swede, even a crazy one*

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

How 'bout this : "If you agree to submit to the rules, you may join the wonderful community of Entmoot and talk to many interesting and enjoyable people!"

And this : "If you refuse to submit to the law of prudence when walking on slippery ice, then you will submit to the law of gravity!" (a C.S. Lewis example)

And this : "If you submit to following this recipe, then you will have a delicious cake!"

With these examples, I'd say "submit to these rules" is a correct usage of the word (and not negative), but you would abide by or follow the law of prudence, and you would follow a recepie. (I just did for delicious fishballs in lobster sauce with rice and leeks. Not real lobster sauce, but it sure was good!) On a second read through I guess "submit to a law" is correct too.
You could also say "abide by" these rules.
So WRT Biblical submission, are you saying it's like abiding/submitting to some rules?

About the next part you posted about Jesus... I completely agree that Jesus was radical and took a lot of risks. I think we agree with each other that Jesus was a wonderful person who was kind to everyone, even those despised by society, and He even forgave those responsible for crucifying him! However I don't entirely understand how this relates to the rest of your post. Did Jesus make comments about what a marriage should be like and/or the idea of (Biblical) submission?

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

This would be a simple side-effect of design and intention, but I'll get into that later.

I have a feeling this is a point we will disagree on - I don't place a lot of stock in many major ideas about the role of women in societies past and present, and around the world. (I'm a staunch egalitarian and I don't accept the status quo in many cases. )

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Let me point out one thing - if there is an even number of people in a group, and the vote splits down the middle, how will you decide on something? Think about it!

I kept the quote of mine to which you were replying, because I don't see how that responds to what I said.
To answer your question though, it depends what you're trying to decide. If everyone agrees, a simple coin toss could decide the outcome. Otherwise, I guess we'd have a debate with a neutral moderator and then take a vote again. If we still didn't have a majority, we could make comprimises until a majority was happy with the outcome/decision/law/etc.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

RÃ*an, I love how you make a post that says you're going to make another post. And the 8000+ post count becomes abundantly clear...

With these examples, I'd say "submit to these rules" is a correct usage of the word (and not negative), but you would abide by or follow the law of prudence, and you would follow a recepie. (I just did for delicious fishballs in lobster sauce with rice and leeks. Not real lobster sauce, but it sure was good!) On a second read through I guess "submit to a law" is correct too.
You could also say "abide by" these rules.
So WRT Biblical submission, are you saying it's like abiding/submitting to some rules?

No, not exactly that - just pointing out that the concept of submission is not entirely negative. You were saying something like you didn't see any ways that submission could be a good thing, and I was pointing out some ways.

About the next part you posted about Jesus... I completely agree that Jesus was radical and took a lot of risks. I think we agree with each other that Jesus was a wonderful person who was kind to everyone, even those despised by society, and He even forgave those responsible for crucifying him! However I don't entirely understand how this relates to the rest of your post. Did Jesus make comments about what a marriage should be like and/or the idea of (Biblical) submission?

My point is that Jesus was NOT a product of His times. Some people will say that marriage in the Bible was fine, but it was a product of the times it was written in. I was pointing out that Jesus did NOT feel obligated to stick to the conventions of His time, so His words on marriage should not be subject to that objection. And yes, He did have some comments on marriage.

I have a feeling this is a point we will disagree on - I don't place a lot of stock in many major ideas about the role of women in societies past and present, and around the world.

Nor do I.

I kept the quote of mine to which you were replying, because I don't see how that responds to what I said.
To answer your question though, it depends what you're trying to decide. If everyone agrees, a simple coin toss could decide the outcome. Otherwise, I guess we'd have a debate with a neutral moderator and then take a vote again. If we still didn't have a majority, we could make comprimises until a majority was happy with the outcome/decision/law/etc.

You had said "no apparent purpose", and I was pointing out one purpose of submission - to decide upon a course of action when there is an even number in the group (in this case, two!), without causing a split in the group (in this case, divorce). So in a practical sense, designating one person in a pair as the final decision maker when two people disagree is VERY practical. Now whether it is a good or bad thing depends, of course, upon the DETAILS of the arrangement, which I'll get into shortly. But do you see my point about a practical purpose?

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

With these examples, I'd say "submit to these rules" is a correct usage of the word (and not negative), but you would abide by or follow the law of prudence, and you would follow a recepie. (I just did for delicious fishballs in lobster sauce with rice and leeks. Not real lobster sauce, but it sure was good!) On a second read through I guess "submit to a law" is correct too.
You could also say "abide by" these rules.
So WRT Biblical submission, are you saying it's like abiding/submitting to some rules?

So the husband is the law then - since you have no problem with the connotation of comparing biblical submission to abiding by the law?

[Nurvingiel]

Psst, JD, yer quote tags are showing.

Though I'm certainly not convinced that Biblical submission is a good idea, I get the impression from RÃ*an that it's laws or rules for the husband and the wife. The rules are different for men and women for some reason I don't understand, and RÃ* said she'd get into in a later post.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Psst, JD, yer quote tags are showing.

Though I'm certainly not convinced that Biblical submission is a good idea, I get the impression from RÃ*an that it's laws or rules for the husband and the wife. The rules are different for men and women for some reason I don't understand, and RÃ* said she'd get into in a later post.

Well then - why is it ONLY the WOMAN who must sibmit to the man?

I fixed the tags by the way.

[Falagar]

Because God said so, naturally.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Falagar

Because God said so, naturally.

Oh yes - I forgot - how stupid of me.

[Rían]

(I just checked out the post you gave me a link to, Nurvs - #70)
*puts it in queue* Whew! Lots to think about and discuss!

Falagar - I'm assuming that's your own personal opinion. Could you elaborate, please, on why you think "Because God said so" is a good reason? I'd like to hear

[Rían]

Nurvi - is it true that "you have no problem with the connotation of comparing biblical submission to abiding by the law?" I didn't see you say that anywhere

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

(I just checked out the post you gave me a link to, Nurvs - #70)
*puts it in queue* Whew! Lots to think about and discuss!

Falagar - I'm assuming that's your own personal opinion. Could you elaborate, please, on why you think "Because God said so" is a good reason? I'd like to hear

Well, mostly because I can't see any reason for submission unless you believe in (a) God and then have to follow the rules of the religion (which hopefully comes from Him). Whether this is a good reason or not depends on how religious you are.

At least this is how it seems to me.

[Rían]

No, I mean when you were offering that reason, "Because God said so, naturally", were you speaking for your own beliefs? or were you speaking for what you thought other people's beliefs were? or were you speaking for what you thought my beliefs were? or what?

(and Aikanáro rocks!!)

[Falagar]

It was mostly a dumbed-down version of what I believe the debate will end at (that is, Christians will use the Bible while the other side naturally won't accept it). I'm what one may define as an agnostic, so I don't really take sides. Wussy, I know.

Star Wars on the telly, probably stumbled a lot in the explanation. Got to get back to Hoth. Nice to see there are more Aegnor-fans about.

[Rían]

Well, if you "don't really take sides", then what's your dumbed-down version of what non-Christians will say? Let's be fair here!

(and agnostics take sides, too! They take the agnostic side, which from what I've seen is very often to not make a decision, which in itself IS making a decision!)

But nevermind - perhaps it would just be better to just let people speak for themselves - you might be surprised! Your dumbed-down version is totally misrepresenting my views, btw, altho it might represent some other people's views.

And I thought it was a teensy bit ridiculing, too, which is not like you, Falagar )

Ah, Aikanáro ..
"In battle the light of his eyes was like flame, though otherwise he was a generous and noble spirit."
"But too soon in the North-wind his flame will go out!"
I don't blame Andreth ...

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Well, if you "don't really take sides", then what's your dumbed-down version of what non-Christians will say? Let's be fair here!

(and agnostics take sides, too! They take the agnostic side, which from what I've seen is very often to not make a decision, which in itself IS making a decision!)

Of course I take sides, was a stupid comment. Just didn't want to explain myself right then.

A dumbed-down version of what a non-Christian will say is impossible to say, as a non-Christian may come from a number of different religions (or none) and cultures, all of which have different views on women. Myself, I'd say that the woman's submission in Christianity is a result of men's physical advantage which they have put into religion to make sure they stay on the top.

But nevermind - perhaps it would just be better to just let people speak for themselves - you might be surprised! Your dumbed-down version is totally misrepresenting my views, btw, altho it might represent some other people's views.

I'm curious - How would you argue for submission without using God?

And I thought it was a teensy bit ridiculing, too, which is not like you, Falagar )

I know I was, been nice for far too long.

Ah, Aikanáro ..
"In battle the light of his eyes was like flame, though otherwise he was a generous and noble spirit."
"But too soon in the North-wind his flame will go out!"
I don't blame Andreth ...

Love those quotes.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Nurvi - is it true that "you have no problem with the connotation of comparing biblical submission to abiding by the law?" I didn't see you say that anywhere

I said this:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Though I'm certainly not convinced that Biblical submission is a good idea, I get the impression from RÃ*an that it's laws or rules for the husband and the wife. The rules are different for men and women for some reason I don't understand, and RÃ* said she'd get into in a later post.

I don't have a problem with it being compared to laws unless this is actually a wrong comparison. It was your CS Lewis quote that confused me on this point. However, JD brings up a very good point when he asks why is it only the woman who must submit to the man? I too am wondering this.

There are two major points of confusion here. The two points are "What does 'submission' mean in this context?" and "What is Biblical submission?"
I believe that you are qualified to explain this, but I wouldn't think less of you if you were not. (There are things I don't feel qualified to explain about my own beliefs, that's just how it is sometimes.)

I think you have laid the groundwork for your explanation well and we're all ready to dive right in to the heart of the matter.

What is Biblical submission? What must the husband do? What must the wife do?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Falagar

A dumbed-down version of what a non-Christian will say is impossible to say, as a non-Christian may come from a number of different religions (or none) and cultures, all of which have different views on women.

Well, you couldn't cover every version, but it's certainly possible to cover a few of the better known ones! I could give many suggestions but I won't - I'll let people here speak for themselves.

Myself, I'd say that the woman's submission in Christianity is a result of men's physical advantage which they have put into religion to make sure they stay on the top.

Have you reached this conclusion based on study of the Bible and what it says about the subject? If not, what have you based it on?

I'm curious - How would you argue for submission without using God?

Hang on, got to look something up ....

I know I was, been nice for far too long.

You bad thing, you!

Love those quotes.

yeah ... I fear I share the fate of Andreth to some degree ...