Animal morality: are humans merely animals?

[Lizra]

Rian, you say.."But my point had nothing to do with how your son got here, or how creation got here. My point was that if one thing is better suited to take care of another thing, that needs care, for WHATEVER reason, than it is only logical that the one that is better suited to take care of the other should do so, and it has nothing to do with being conceited. It's merely a fact."

I don't think humans are better suited to take care of everything else. I don't think everything else needs human care. But...... parents are suited to take care of their own children, and young children do need care. Apples/oranges. It is believable that some humans might think they are better than everything else, and also believe it is only *logical* that they then are entitled to *care* for everything else as they see fit, but it is in no way a fact.

I guess I see choosing to believe that god made humans a higher order is perhaps rather....you know...the "N" word.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownie

as far as the 'ceiling' goes, time will tell if nothing else

I have a feeling God, not "time", will tell, eventually , but perhaps Carl Sagan is right ...


*intones "billions and billions and billions and billions of years...." *

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lizra

. It is believable that some humans might think they are better than everything else, and also believe it is only *logical* that they then are entitled to *care* for everything else as they see fit, but it is in no way a fact.

I'm still not getting my point across to you - I'm NOT saying it's a fact that humans are better than everything else. I'm saying that IF it is a fact that humans were purposefully designed as better, and were purposefully designed to take care of creation, then it's ... a fact, and NOT a conceited thought.

Perhaps if you gave me a call, I could explain better ... *evil grin*

You never called me ... *pathetic, sad, guilt-inducing look*

I'll just go off now and cry for a bit ... *looks back to see if Lizra is picking up the phone*

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I'm still not getting my point across to you - I'm NOT saying it's a fact that humans are better than everything else. I'm saying that IF it is a fact that humans were purposefully designed as better, and were purposefully designed to take care of creation, then it's ... a fact, and NOT a conceited thought.

Perhaps if you gave me a call, I could explain better ... *evil grin*

You never called me ... *pathetic, sad, guilt-inducing look*

I'll just go off now and cry for a bit ... *looks back to see if Lizra is picking up the phone*

IF it's a fact? What's this...a waffle? You either think it's a fact or you don't. I don't. As I said before...

"I guess I see choosing to believe that god made humans a higher order is perhaps rather....you know...the "N" word."

Nice guilt trip! But hey....I don't want to talk about the Christian religion! That's the main reason I haven't called. I've heard the spiel, and weighed the "evidence", and I don't believe it. I don't want to spend any time hearing about god! Nothing against you personally though, you are very fun except for the religious "digs". The little darlin just came in with big plans anyway.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lizra

IF it's a fact? What's this...a waffle? You either think it's a fact or you don't. I don't.

I guess we're just doomed to misunderstand each other. My whole point was to show that it's not a narcisisstic belief to believe in a fact. IF it's a fact or not is a whole 'nother issue. I know you don't believe it's a fact.

Nice guilt trip! But hey....I don't want to talk about the Christian religion! That's the main reason I haven't called. I've heard the spiel, and weighed the "evidence", and I don't believe it. I don't want to spend any time hearing about god! Nothing against you personally though, you are very fun except for the religious "digs". The little darlin just came in with big plans anyway.

I wasn't going to nag you about Christianity I can talk about other things, you know. I don't nag people about God. I don't bring up God on the Quote Game thread. I do talk about my beliefs on threads where it's appropriate and where others talk about their beliefs. I do answer questions put to me about any subject, even Christianity. Did you really think I was going to harangue you about Christianity? Really? If so, I'm sorry you think that. I wouldn't. I have too much respect for people to harangue them about something like that. I was just trying to tease you a little about not calling me when you said you would.

(do I really have a nice voice?)

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I think Chesterton's point is a good one (from that long quote) - I think what is unique is that a bird will build a nest, and all nests will look similar for a species, for they build by instinct; but humans will build houses (and whatever else) and make them individual and unique.

once again... persepective... WE do not write the rules on how objects are to be defined. birds may see things QUITE differently. and they may see our structures as absolutely identical and unimpressive (those damn humans they all look alike ). theres other senses going on here remember. and how bout the bees. bees make nests in all kinds of shapes sizes and configurations. the variations are almost endless. even WITHIN species. you never see cookie cutter bee hives inside or out. but you see a whole lot of cookie cutter houses because humans do as much mimicry behavior as many other animals.

We have the urge for art for the sake of art, not because it serves some biological purpose

woah woah there. how do you know making art doesnt serve a biological purpose? i would have to seriously disagree with you there. art has some great biological purposes. in fact one could say that for our entire history we have had a burning NEED (dare I say INSTINCT) to create. and to represent in abstract. id say there are clear benefits to such a practice in terms of our survival. at worst excercising the brain is helpful in keeping us sharp enough to deal with things that come along.

That famous line about why people climb mountains, for example, is another example - why do they climb? "Because it's there!". I think that's another example of the way humans are different from animals in a significant way.

"because its there" always seemed to me like a basic admitance that we follow instinct. In other words "well i dont know why i did it but i just had this strong urge from deep inside me to EXPLORE and ACCOMPLISH!" Our species has a natural tendency to explore and spread. theres some real basic biological reasons i could give you that would explain that one. and that one certainly isnt unique to us. if you stay in the some place and refuse to explore you tend to interbreed and run out of resources. pretty straight forward stuff really.

[Rían]

I'm too bummed to reply now (see vent thread)

[Insidious Rex]

well i dont think you are inconsiderate or stupid or a lout (whats a lout?). But i do think you have "different opinions". And you know what I think of those.

[Valandil]

If we are just animals, we seem to be the only ones who care about any other species (apart from our dogs caring for us... but they just think we're part of their 'pack' ). We're the only ones who strive (in some measure anyway) to protect and preserve the environment... including each of those other species.

[brownjenkins]

good, Val's here!

i was afraid i'd have to start helping RÃ*an to even things out

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

(whats a lout?)

A lout is someone who would ask a friend to call her (when they had both mentioned that it would be nice to chat sometime) only because she wants to nag the person about Christianity.

It's hard being the victim of a stereotype Oh well.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

good, Val's here!

i was afraid i'd have to start helping RÃ*an to even things out

that i gotta see...

Oh no... can't stay. Maybe you should just go ahead!

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Valandil

If we are just animals, we seem to be the only ones who care about any other species (apart from our dogs caring for us... but they just think we're part of their 'pack' ). We're the only ones who strive (in some measure anyway) to protect and preserve the environment... including each of those other species.

but do we? we annihilate more species every day because its convenient to us. and we actually create species for the sole purpose of serving us and being food for us (god didnt give us domesticated cows and chickens. we made those ourselves. the wild ones he "gave" us were a lot more difficult to deal with. and not as good to eat). We are in a losing battle against preserving the environment. we may talk about it but we tend not to put our money where our mouth is. and we burn down thousands of acres of rain forest every day. So how does that make us special? We follow the patterns of any highly successful species (and PATTERNS are what matter here). We outgrow our resources and then devastate our own environments because of that. Then we die in the millions from famine and disease. Humans meet the locust.

[Lizra]

Oh Rian.....
The first phone conversation we had, you brought up god stuff. It's no big deal though! I just didn't want to hurt your feelings (too late) if I called you by telling you I absolutely didn't want to talk about god. Gossip about other mooters...yes... ask how your surgery is...yes...talk about kids...yes....religion...NO! Now I'll go to the vent thread....

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

but do we? we annihilate more species every day because its convenient to us. and we actually create species for the sole purpose of serving us and being food for us (god didnt give us domesticated cows and chickens. we made those ourselves. the wild ones he "gave" us were a lot more difficult to deal with. and not as good to eat). We are in a losing battle against preserving the environment. we may talk about it but we tend not to put our money where our mouth is. and we burn down thousands of acres of rain forest every day. So how does that make us special? We follow the patterns of any highly successful species (and PATTERNS are what matter here). We outgrow our resources and then devastate our own environments because of that. Then we die in the millions from famine and disease. Humans meet the locust.

I agree that we don't do as well as we should or could. However, I think the fact that we, as people, care about it and try to do something says a lot. Animals are just concerned with their next meal, shelter, whatever... we think and plan beyond that... and plan for the welfare of other species as well as our own.

In domesticating various animals, we haven't exactly invented them. By husbandry we have managed them. We cut down forests, but we also plant. We are not unified enough in all this... and some people still live only unto themselves... to fill their own stomachs, so to speak. The fact that we even choose to discuss this matter separates us.

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by Valandil

If we are just animals, we seem to be the only ones who care about any other species (apart from our dogs caring for us... but they just think we're part of their 'pack' ). We're the only ones who strive (in some measure anyway) to protect and preserve the environment... including each of those other species.

Good point, Val. And it is a proof of our moral sense.

as they're the disagreements in these thread: I argument ergo I seek for the truth

Sorry, everybody. I haven't been able to keep up with this thread. It moves too fast!! . If someone was waiting for a response from me, please tell me...



... like someone was...

[Lizra]

Lol! (your last sentence!)

[Rían]

Sorry to go off-topic, but I made a mess publically, so I need to clean it up publically ...

Originally Posted by Lizra

Oh Rian.....
The first phone conversation we had, you brought up god stuff. It's no big deal though! I just didn't want to hurt your feelings (too late) if I called you by telling you I absolutely didn't want to talk about god. Gossip about other mooters...yes... ask how your surgery is...yes...talk about kids...yes....religion...NO! Now I'll go to the vent thread....

Someone PMed me and told me that basically they thought I was trying to hurt Lizra with my comments. I was really surprised, because I didn't mean to hurt her. I just meant to show her that I thought she had a really wrong perception of me, and that wrong perception pained me, because it meant that I didn't care about her. And I do care about you, Lizra.

IRex was right when he guessed (very kindly, because he was trying to give me an excuse) that I have some outside stresses going on, and that's why I've been more emotional lately. And I guess I was so emotional that I couldn't see beyond my own hurt to realize that my comments might have hurt Lizra.

What I remember about the phone conversation is that you asked about evolution and I responded (IOW, I didn't bring it up). But I could be wrong, and it's obvious that you have that perception of me, regardless of if it's actually true or false. I won't bug you about calling me again. If you want to chat about those things you mentioned, I'd love to chat with you, but I understand if you don't want to talk. I'm sorry for the ways I've hurt you and wish you all the best

Well, I hope at least that I'm good for a few laughs here, if nothing else. I care about you guys - you're all so much fun and so bright and kind - I hope you guys can believe me, and I'm sorry for all my faults and hope I haven't hurt anyone too much.

[Rían]

And to go back OT -

I think one of the most relevant comments made here was made by FMiddle - the one about how the people-and-animals-the-same group has a small conception of their own liberty.

That really made me think, and I realized a problem that I have with the people-and-animals-the-same and the no-free-will ideas.

They may explain things, but what they explain is too small.

In a little while, I'm going to go into the next room and play a beautiful, ancient Irish tune on my Celtic harp. Now I would be very interested to hear IRex's explanation of what will happen. I'm gonna pull some quotes from his recent post, as well as some comments from some of his previous posts, to put together how I think he might explain it. Here's the post:

Originally Posted by IRex

"because its there" always seemed to me like a basic admitance that we follow instinct. In other words "well i dont know why i did it but i just had this strong urge from deep inside me to EXPLORE and ACCOMPLISH!" Our species has a natural tendency to explore and spread. theres some real basic biological reasons i could give you that would explain that one. and that one certainly isnt unique to us. if you stay in the some place and refuse to explore you tend to interbreed and run out of resources. pretty straight forward stuff really.

Please tell me if I'm wrong, IRex, but I think your explanation would go something like this: RÃ*an has instincts in her to explore and accomplish, and these instincts have driven her to take up playing the harp. Being accomplished in this area will help her to breed and pass on her genes. This desire is certainly not unique to us as humans; animals act the same way. It's all pretty straightforward stuff, really - harp playing is around because people that happened to pick it up also happened to be successful at attracting mates, so the instinct for music was preserved in the species.

Is that pretty close to how you would answer?

I don't think you're online now, so I'll just continue on ...

To repeat, what was explained was accurate and may very well be true; but what it explained was too small. And therefore I believe it is not an accurate explanation, for accurate explanations explain ALL that is observed.

What that explanation completely missed was this: that I learned to play the harp because I think it sounds beautiful; and because I think music in general is beautiful; and because my mother whom I love plays the harp; and because it reminds me of Middle Earth, which is a beautiful literary creation; and because I feel pleasure in creating my own arrangements of songs that have been around for centuries and have touched the hearts of countless people; and because I feel pleasure in playing such a intimate instrument (you pull it right into your body to play it, next to your heart, and you can feel the music through the soundboard); and because I feel pleasure in sharing the music with others; and because I am made in the image of God, who is a Creator, and therefore I feel pleasure in creating beautiful things; and it is right and good to create beauty.

All that is missed in the purely naturalistic explanation.

It's too small.

Those things I feel are REAL. They're REAL. They exist; I know first-hand that they exist. And they ARE NOT ACCOUNTED FOR in a naturalistic explanation.

Now if the naturalistic crew (whom I love and thoroughly enjoy knowing) really does not see those things I described - the beauty of music, the goodness of creative acts - then their explanation is ENTIRELY SUFFICIENT for them, and is perfectly logical, and they need no other. IT IS RIGHT for them. However, the world that I see and experience contains additional elements, and therefore I need another explanation that takes them into account, too. And I find that Christianity explains the facts that I experience and observe - both the facts accounted for in naturalistic explanations, and those that are NOT accounted for in naturalistic explanations but that I know exist (at least for me).

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

size and visibility make us fundamentally different?

No, and then again neither did I say that.

The only man made object that can be seen from space is the great wall of china so Im told. Oh and the ozone hole of course…

And the lightpollution... or so I'm told. But space is a big space, what you see depends on your own position ... and perspective if you will.

Originally Posted by Valandil

We're the only ones who strive (in some measure anyway) to protect and preserve the environment... including each of those other species.

Indeed, but we're the only ones too who succeed in messing up the world on this large scale. But you do have a point, it reminds me of a quote in my last year's ecofilosophy book. It may have been our [human] ancesters that wiped out the mammoth. But we still remember and care. If it had been the other way around, the mammoth wouldn't have been sorry for us.