AIDS: Approaches and Funding

[Rían]

Yes - remind me if I forget, I'm heading out to dinner with my dad and the kiddos now.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

You hold your beliefs on homosexuality based on your worldview, part of which is that our behavior is entirely dictated by genes and environment, right? (please correct me if I"m wrong) And I'm pointing out a logical inconsistency in your worldview, which will hopefully make you reconsider your worldview. If it's true that our behavior is entirely dictated by genes and environment, then I'm pointing out that a logical conclusion is that the people that you get mad at because you think they're discriminating can't help their behavior and therefore they don't deserve your anger, right?

didnt you get it when i said that anger is part of our ANIMAL make up? not some cerebral high minded aspect of our nature. dogs get angry. lions get angry. and humans get angry. its a PROGRAMMED response to outside stimuli. it is in us because it has helped us survive in situations of conflict and of rivalry. when is the last time you said "hm. i think ill get angry. it seems like the smart thing to do here."? Im guessing never. so what is this all about again? it has nothing to do with homosexuality or anything else we were taking about and it seems a straw grabbing attempt at making some kind of point that I dont really see.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

So can I use the word "nigger", and as long as I do it in an informal manner, like a big bear who wants to play, it's ok with you?

Id like to see you try. im guessing you cant pull it off though. its not you. youd just look ridiculously racist and tacky. on the other hand if you were to say "oh please insidious get off yer damn high horse and wake up. im tired of your big words and arrogant attitude." that would be funny. And i would appreciate that kind of approach. it would make me feel like hey this chick really does believe what she is saying is the absolute truth. and shes not afraid to mix it up too. and id respect that enormously.

remember little sminty? she rarely comes here any more but we would talk often about philosophical things and i can remember one time when she blew up at me because we were having an argument about music and i guess i pushed her buttons or something and she had some serious choice words for me that i cant fully repeat here but I actually saved because i found them so wonderful when someone can express complete rage at me in well worded prose and doesnt hold back an iota. i have such respect for that. so no. going toe to toe with me doesnt make me angry. it makes me respect you. complaining about words like "silly" and "foolish" doesnt though.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Id like to see you try. im guessing you cant pull it off though. its not you. youd just look ridiculously racist and tacky. on the other hand if you were to say "oh please insidious get off yer damn high horse and wake up. im tired of your big words and arrogant attitude." that would be funny. And i would appreciate that kind of approach. it would make me feel like hey this chick really does believe what she is saying is the absolute truth. and shes not afraid to mix it up too. and id respect that enormously.

remember little sminty? she rarely comes here any more but we would talk often about philosophical things and i can remember one time when she blew up at me because we were having an argument about music and i guess i pushed her buttons or something and she had some serious choice words for me that i cant fully repeat here but I actually saved because i found them so wonderful when someone can express complete rage at me in well worded prose and doesnt hold back an iota. i have such respect for that. so no. going toe to toe with me doesnt make me angry. it makes me respect you. complaining about words like "silly" and "foolish" doesnt though.

Apparently there's a culture clash occurring here, then. Some people have been brought up in such a way that they don't use that kind of language. The Apostle Paul spoke out against language like that in the New Testament, "among you I don't want any foul language or coarse joking." So what you're saying is "I'll be convinced you mean what you say if you go against what you say." How much sense does that make?

What you're saying seems to me to indicate you don't care what other people feel about it. You don't care if you hurt others or anger them. In fact, your remarks about Sminty-Smeagol indicate to me that you like it when that happens.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Id like to see you try. im guessing you cant pull it off though. its not you. youd just look ridiculously racist and tacky.

So in other words, the racist, derogatory language that tears others down is fine if you're fine with it. It doesn't matter if you hurt others (so long as you feel like a big bear). What they feel is just too bad. That is really what this is sounding like.

You're coming across as pretty mean. I hope you'll listen to me when I say this is a bad course of action. Really bad. Try to change and you'll make more friends and feel better about yourself. I doubt you'll listen to me. Instead you'll become defensive, argue against me. But this is an honest criticism from a friend, a suggestion offered with good intent. With love. Not because of the Bible, but because of friendship.

~Lief

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

didnt you get it when i said that anger is part of our ANIMAL make up? not some cerebral high minded aspect of our nature. dogs get angry. lions get angry. and humans get angry. its a PROGRAMMED response to outside stimuli. it is in us because it has helped us survive in situations of conflict and of rivalry. when is the last time you said "hm. i think ill get angry. it seems like the smart thing to do here."? Im guessing never. so what is this all about again? it has nothing to do with homosexuality or anything else we were taking about and it seems a straw grabbing attempt at making some kind of point that I dont really see.

Yes, I got it, and if it's a programmed response, then it's obvious that when people are angry at each other, it's only because it's programmed, and a person that, say, kills someone don't DESERVE the anger against him, right? I mean the anger is just a knee-jerk reaction that can't be helped, and there's no fault involved on the part of the murderer since he couldn't help himself, right? There's no justice in putting a murderer behind bars, because he couldn't help it, right? And those who were friends of the murder victim are angry at him only because they're programmed to be, and not because the guy deserves to have decent people angry at him, right?

If you say that's correct, I'm fully willing to accept that your beliefs are consistent. But I won't let you have it both ways, baby! Anger implies blame, which implies - yes - free will choices. I'm not mad at a person that hits me if someone else took their arm and used it to hit me against their will. And I hope, given your worldview, that you wouldn't be angry at people that oppose homosexual marriage, since you think their genes and environment made them be that way.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Id like to see you try. im guessing you cant pull it off though. its not you. youd just look ridiculously racist and tacky. on the other hand if you were to say "oh please insidious get off yer damn high horse and wake up. im tired of your big words and arrogant attitude." that would be funny. And i would appreciate that kind of approach. it would make me feel like hey this chick really does believe what she is saying is the absolute truth. and shes not afraid to mix it up too. and id respect that enormously.

remember little sminty? she rarely comes here any more but we would talk often about philosophical things and i can remember one time when she blew up at me because we were having an argument about music and i guess i pushed her buttons or something and she had some serious choice words for me that i cant fully repeat here but I actually saved because i found them so wonderful when someone can express complete rage at me in well worded prose and doesnt hold back an iota. i have such respect for that. so no. going toe to toe with me doesnt make me angry. it makes me respect you. complaining about words like "silly" and "foolish" doesnt though.

I just quoted your entire response to my question.

You never answered my question.

Would you please answer my question?

Here it is again: So can I use the word "nigger", and as long as I do it in an informal manner, like a big bear who wants to play, it's ok with you?

(And even tho you like Sminty's style, I'll continue to post in the way that I think is best I think people should do what they think is right, don't you?)

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Apparently there's a culture clash occurring here, then. Some people have been brought up in such a way that they don't use that kind of language

you were brought up not to use the words “silly� and “babbling�? sounds like a rather extremist approach to language in my opinion. And youll note that I didn’t say the only way youll convince me you mean what you say is if you curse at me. All I said was if you let your emotion AND your intellect combine and don’t hold anything back on me I respect that greatly. If you are just babbling angrily (oops sorry, theres that word again) then it doesn’t mean much. But you can certainly be calm and rational and still make good points. I never said you couldn’t.

my whole point in bringing this up is just in saying don’t be afraid to play rough with me I don’t mind. Not that you have to get downright hostile or blow up necessarily but feel free to throw a few punches. I can handle them. And theres such a thing as friendly wrestling and joking around. Or does the bible say we shall not engage in such activity?

What you're saying seems to me to indicate you don't care what other people feel about it. You don't care if you hurt others or anger them. In fact, your remarks about Sminty-Smeagol indicate to me that you like it when that happens.

try READING. I LIKED it when she so beautifully came back at me. This little kid letting a full grown man twice her age know exactly what she thought of him at that moment and so eloquently I might add. Its not as if I was goading her on. Just being rigid like I normally am. And she blew up and then 5 minutes later we were laughing about it. And 5 minutes after that we were talking about something completely different. That’s how I work. That’s how a lot of people work. So you know the old saying: If you cant stand the heat…

So in other words, the racist, derogatory language that tears others down is fine if you're fine with it. It doesn't matter if you hurt others (so long as you feel like a big bear). What they feel is just too bad. That is really what this is sounding like.

wait wanna show me all these racist derogatory words I used please? The first time I call you a racist term is when you can throw this in my face. But using the word “silly� or “kiddie� is light years away from calling someone a “stupid nigger� or something as rian has been suggesting. If I cant even use the word silly with you in conversation then please don’t bother even replying to me.

You're coming across as pretty mean. I hope you'll listen to me when I say this is a bad course of action. Really bad. Try to change and you'll make more friends and feel better about yourself.

spare me. What was that we were talking about imposing ones “worldview� on another? I would call you a hypocrite but then youd probably get offended.

its real simple. If you cant handle joking around and intense passionate discussion then don’t engage in them. Talk only to pleasant happy people who don’t find some of your views on reality despicable or illogical so that you aren’t hurt or offended when they rightfully express these feelings in response to your OWN posts to THEM. Then everything will be just fine for you in your little bubble. Or put on your gloves and engage in discussion where we DO recognize CERTAIN boundaries but DON’T act as the worlds moral authority and tell people even the most innocent of joking around and impassioned interaction is evil and wrong.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Yes, I got it, and if it's a programmed response, then it's obvious that when people are angry at each other, it's only because it's programmed, and a person that, say, kills someone don't DESERVE the anger against him, right? I mean the anger is just a knee-jerk reaction that can't be helped, and there's no fault involved on the part of the murderer since he couldn't help himself, right? There's no justice in putting a murderer behind bars, because he couldn't help it, right? And those who were friends of the murder victim are angry at him only because they're programmed to be, and not because the guy deserves to have decent people angry at him, right?

what are you talking about here? If someone kills someone of course there is justification in putting them behind bars. They commited a crime and they robbed someone of their life and they are dangerous. When does anger enter into the reason why people are sent to jail?

Anger implies blame, which implies - yes - free will choices.

anger implies anger. Nothing more. You choose to be angry sometimes? You have such controls over your emotions? The very fact that we DON’T control our emotions to our whims should show you that our BEHVIOR is the product of deeply rooted factors that combine with environmental factors to chart out the general course of our behavior. Is it a coincidence that there is more murder in poorer neighborhoods generally? There just HAPPENS to be that pattern of people making freely willed choices to kill one another for a purse or a tv or in a drive by? Or could it be that the effect of that specific environment in which survival is harder then in your nice rich suburban neighborhood in combination with human genetics as they are brings about more situations where people wind up killing each other. If it was all free will then the murder rate should be even everywhere. Why isn’t it?

I'm not mad at a person that hits me if someone else took their arm and used it to hit me against their will.

no because THEY didn’t hit you. the other person hit you. If I hit you with a stick will you be mad at the stick or me?

And I hope, given your worldview, that you wouldn't be angry at people that oppose homosexual marriage, since you think their genes and environment made them be that way.

oh is this the part where you are trying to tie it all back in? quite a reach. I can say if I was homosexual and you told me no you cant get married I think I would be justified in being angry at you just as you would be justified in being angry at me if I said no you cant worship as you please. Just because your genes and your environment combine to make you misguided doesn’t mean my genes and my environment wont combine to make me angry about you trying to control me.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

You never answered my question.

Would you please answer my question?

Here it is again: So can I use the word "nigger", and as long as I do it in an informal manner, like a big bear who wants to play, it's ok with you?

And Ill say again: I WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOU TRY. Meaning go ahead and lets see how you come off. As i said im guessing it wont work for you. But who knows. maybe you greet your friends with a hand shake and a firm "Sup nigga!" in which case that works just fine. Although I must admit Im highly amused at the very image of you doing this. *imagining Rian in baggy pants and with a gold tooth*

(And even tho you like Sminty's style, I'll continue to post in the way that I think is best I think people should do what they think is right, don't you?)

agreed. now tell that to lief who seems to want everyone to post in a style only he approves of.

Honestly im not saying you need to let me brutalize you here. I mean at most message boards im pretty much middle of the road as far as beligerance goes so im not really sure why im being tagged with the horrible bastard tag here really. im pretty mellow and easy going normally. i just enjoy joking around and debating passionatly. remember the whole rian the baby killer? we went back and forth about that for weeks and it was always in a funny joking way. how come i didnt have lief and others jumping down my throat for being mean and immoral when i first said that?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

you were brought up not to use the words “silly� and “babbling�?

Sure we use them. We don't tell people we're talking to that they're them, however. Except in fun, in circumstances where we know it won't offend. Saying someone's argument is silly is unkind to the individual, telling someone who's really serious about what they're saying that they're babbling is also a way of pushing them down.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

sounds like a rather extremist approach to language in my opinion. And youll note that I didn’t say the only way youll convince me you mean what you say is if you curse at me.

Of course.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

my whole point in bringing this up is just in saying don’t be afraid to play rough with me I don’t mind. Not that you have to get downright hostile or blow up necessarily but feel free to throw a few punches. I can handle them. And theres such a thing as friendly wrestling and joking around. Or does the bible say we shall not engage in such activity?

If everyone feels like it's friendly and a joke, it's surely fine. If only you feel like it's friendly and a joke, it's surely not fine.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

wait wanna show me all these racist derogatory words I used please? The first time I call you a racist term is when you can throw this in my face. But using the word “silly� or “kiddie� is light years away from calling someone a “stupid nigger� or something as rian has been suggesting. If I cant even use the word silly with you in conversation then please don’t bother even replying to me.

There's a time and a place for the word silly to be used. If my sister is making bizarre faces at me, of course I can say she's being silly. If she is reading her research paper to me and I call it silly, that's something else entirely. Since she has a high respect for me, it could reduce her to tears. So there are circumstances where these words are all right and when they're not. One can be deadly hurtful while using words even milder then silly. Simple sarcasm at what someone else views as his brilliant idea can be hurtful. Mockery of someone's arguments in debate can be crushing to the individual.

My point is that I think you should look more closely at how you're using such words, when and to whom. Just be a bit more careful of others' feelings in the discussion.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

There's a time and a place for the word silly to be used. If my sister is making bizarre faces at me, of course I can say she's being silly. If she is reading her research paper to me and I call it silly, that's something else entirely. Since she has a high respect for me, it could reduce her to tears. So there are circumstances where these words are all right and when they're not. One can be deadly hurtful while using words even milder then silly. Simple sarcasm at what someone else views as his brilliant idea can be hurtful. Mockery of someone's arguments in debate can be crushing to the individual.

My point is that I think you should look more closely at how you're using such words, when and to whom. Just be a bit more careful of others' feelings in the discussion.

I see what you are saying. But what if i GENUINLY feel something that was said WAS silly? What do i do? say nothing? im not that type. i dont mince words. i dont pull punches. i just say exactly what i think. in fact i go out of my way to try to provide the exact right word in any given situation. its how i am. so in your example yes i would most likely have told your sister that was silly if i genuinly felt it was silly. but THEN i would have told her WHY i felt that way and given her suggestions as to how she could change the paper to make it more useful. would you say thats great sister yer such a good writer? who is doing the true discervice then? with my approach not only does she get thicker skin over time (a VERY handy thing in this world where people for no reason call you MUCH worse things then "silly") but she also learns how to structure a paper better and gets a batter grade.

I can only be who i am. if i try to force myself into being all sachrine and nausiatingly friendly and ignore any comments that simply scream out call me silly then ill probably explode. i cant do that. so if you have another suggestion in how i deal with people like you who dont like to joke around in that way then im all ears. perhaps we can meet half way. perhaps i can toughen you up a bit and you can show me how to be sweet and lovey dovey and gushy when i interact with people.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

anger implies anger. Nothing more. You choose to be angry sometimes? You have such controls over your emotions?

People can control when they express it. Also I think to some small extent people actually do indulge in controlling their emotions. Some people purposely go out and have a pity party, even though they could choose instead to do other things. Feelings of anger grant some people a feeling of empowerment, so they work with that anger, and I believe it becomes more frequent for them then it does for people without that anger.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

The very fact that we DON’T control our emotions to our whims should show you that our BEHVIOR is the product of deeply rooted factors that combine with environmental factors to chart out the general course of our behavior.

Sometimes I don't think we can at all control our emotions. We feel enormous grief when someone we know dies. We feel elation when we receive a raise at work. However, we can control our behavior. While we can't always (though perhaps sometimes we can, like in my above examples) control our feelings, we can control what we do. If I feel hatred for someone, that doesn't mean I'll certainly kill them. If I feel burning lust for someone, it doesn't mean that I'll have sex with them. I can control what I do.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Is it a coincidence that there is more murder in poorer neighborhoods generally? There just HAPPENS to be that pattern of people making freely willed choices to kill one another for a purse or a tv or in a drive by? Or could it be that the effect of that specific environment in which survival is harder then in your nice rich suburban neighborhood in combination with human genetics as they are brings about more situations where people wind up killing each other. If it was all free will then the murder rate should be even everywhere. Why isn’t it?[/B]

It's LIMITED free will we're talking about here. We're limited by our circumstances, by the extent of our own individual powers, and we feel emotions and temptations. Some of us let these emotions and desires control us. Others have power over the emotions and desires, refusing to let them gain sway in their lives.

If people have these emotions that push them toward breaking the law more then the rich people do, they're more likely to succumb to the temptation. Where there's more temptation, there's more likelihood of succumbing to that temptation. Even from a free will standpoint that's accepted. I know that if I was in a situation where everyone around me is corrupt and accepting bribes, I would be far more likely to enter into the same type of behavior then I am now, where there's no temptation whatsoever. HOWEVER, I still have control. I could choose not to involve myself in that corruption. There are people that do that, individuals who are that strong. Some are killed because of their morality in an immoral environment. Others change the environment through their own integrity (though this is rarer).

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

no because THEY didn’t hit you. the other person hit you. If I hit you with a stick will you be mad at the stick or me?

That's exactly her point. So if she does something against you, she has no control over what she does, therefore she is as deserving of anger as the stick.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Quote:
And I hope, given your worldview, that you wouldn't be angry at people that oppose homosexual marriage, since you think their genes and environment made them be that way.
oh is this the part where you are trying to tie it all back in? quite a reach. I can say if I was homosexual and you told me no you cant get married I think I would be justified in being angry at you just as you would be justified in being angry at me if I said no you cant worship as you please. Just because your genes and your environment combine to make you misguided doesn’t mean my genes and my environment wont combine to make me angry about you trying to control me.

She wouldn't deserve your anger though. She's a robot.

[Insidious Rex]

I think this thread has become "Rian, Lief and Insidious debate about all things great and small. And then debate about debating."

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

I see what you are saying. But what if i GENUINLY feel something that was said WAS silly? What do i do? say nothing? im not that type. i dont mince words. i dont pull punches. i just say exactly what i think. in fact i go out of my way to try to provide the exact right word in any given situation. its how i am. so in your example yes i would most likely have told your sister that was silly if i genuinly felt it was silly. but THEN i would have told her WHY i felt that way and given her suggestions as to how she could change the paper to make it more useful. would you say thats great sister yer such a good writer? who is doing the true discervice then? with my approach not only does she get thicker skin over time (a VERY handy thing in this world where people for no reason call you MUCH worse things then "silly") but she also learns how to structure a paper better and gets a batter grade.

I would say, "great sister, yer such a good writer," and then I would tell her how she can improve. She would listen to my criticisms- I know because I do criticize in that way and she listens and tries to change in those ways.

I'm teaching fencing on Saturdays, usually. There are a lot of beginners there, trying to improve. They are terrible at fencing. Do I tell them exactly how terrible they are and then help them improve? Or do I encourage them, tell them what they're doing right at the same time as telling them some of the wrong things? If I tell them they're terrible and then instruct them, many of them will never come back to fencing. They'll be hurt. If I tell them they're doing well and encourage them as I teach them, they'll keep getting more and more involved.

My two younger brothers write stories and books entirely because of my influence and encouragement. Telling ways to improve in my opinion should be usually linked with encouragement. I've seen nothing but good results from that, friendships blossoming at the same time as enthusiasm to progress increases and the words of criticism are heeded.

It's not our responsibility to give the people "training for life", by hurting them. The U.S. military does that because otherwise they'll be more likely to get shot dead. That's different.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

I can only be who i am. if i try to force myself into being all sachrine and nausiatingly friendly

Is that what I do? Lol!

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

and ignore any comments that simply scream out call me silly then ill probably explode. i cant do that. so if you have another suggestion in how i deal with people like you who dont like to joke around in that way then im all ears. perhaps we can meet half way. perhaps i can toughen you up a bit and you can show me how to be sweet and lovey dovey and gushy when i interact with people.

I've been told by people on Entmoot to leave the debates because in their opinion I don't know enough. I've been condescended to and belittled by others. I'm still here, and I didn't strike back. In my opinion, the ability to control anger or expression of certain feelings shows that you have power over them. This shows that you're strong. That is the kind of strength I strive for. If I can give up all my money of my own will for God, I am strong. Money doesn't control me- I control it. Christians that have done this in the past, in my opinion are very strong. Even if they don't use bad language and aren't tough on other people (which I actually think is much nearer to a sign of weakness). It takes more strength to avoid tearing a maddening person down then it does to tear them down. If I think I am strong yet don't even have mastery over myself and my own behavior, I really am weak.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

I think this thread has become "Rian, Lief and Insidious debate about all things great and small. And then debate about debating."

Maybe we should make a thread like that .

[Lief Erikson]

Just sent the new topic. I find it amusing . Shall we move?

(mutters to himself) There I may also be able to talk with brownjenkins about religion . . .

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

And Ill say again: I WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOU TRY. Meaning go ahead and lets see how you come off. As i said im guessing it wont work for you. But who knows. maybe you greet your friends with a hand shake and a firm "Sup nigga!" in which case that works just fine. Although I must admit Im highly amused at the very image of you doing this. *imagining Rian in baggy pants and with a gold tooth*

So you won't answer my question. I"m not surprised; you'd have to contradict yourself too much!

My grandmother (who died 20 years ago) used the word "nigger" every time she referred to an African-American (she was raised in Georgia). Yet I NEVER heard her use it in a derogatory way. To her, it was a descriptive word to distinguish a person you were talking about, like how I would use "Asian" ("no, not that guy, the Asian guy"). Yet "nigger" is a word with such painful associations to so many, that if she were alive today, I would ask her to consider stop using it because of that.

All I was trying to do was to point out the inconsistencies in your argument, and the sad lack of consideration for others in your attitude. I'm not trying to say which words you should say; I'm only trying to say please reconsider your underlying attitudes and justifications, because words are powerful. "Its just how I play" is a sad excuse for hurting people. I'm not into telling people what to do; I will, however, ask them to think about something if I think they're unaware that they are hurting people. The ball is now in your court; I've done what I felt I needed to do.

Go ahead and use whatever words you want to, and I will choose to point it out when it gets too frequent and abusive, IMO, which typically happens when you don't have a logical answer to my questions I ignore LOTS and LOTS of what I consider insulting words from you, but it was just getting so bad and so frequent in the last few days that I felt I had to comment. Words like that are typically used to distract, and since you haven't answered my questions, I guess either you don't understand them or you don't have a good answer that's consistent with what you've said in the past so you're trying to throw little word bombs into the air to cover it up. (you've invited me to give you a hard time, so here it is yet I will continue to do so without using terms that I think are rude and also have nothing to do with the subject).

agreed. now tell that to lief who seems to want everyone to post in a style only he approves of.

That's a typical inaccurate overstatement from you. Lief was concerned that you might be unaware that your words hurt people, and he courageously and kindly informed you, I"m sure in the full knowledge he'd get blasted by you. It would have been easier for both of us to remain silent, but we have more courage than that.

Honestly im not saying you need to let me brutalize you here. I mean at most message boards im pretty much middle of the road as far as beligerance goes so im not really sure why im being tagged with the horrible bastard tag here really. im pretty mellow and easy going normally. i just enjoy joking around and debating passionatly. remember the whole rian the baby killer? we went back and forth about that for weeks and it was always in a funny joking way. how come i didnt have lief and others jumping down my throat for being mean and immoral when i first said that?

As I've said many times before, I think you're quite kind-hearted. I really hope you'll seriously consider the things that Lief and I have been loving enough to share with you. Again, we're NOT setting ourselves up as the word-judge; it's YOUR decision what words you use. And it's our decision to talk to you about it, if we really think it's going overboard. And I talk to you about it because I think you're kind-hearted and were just not aware of it.

The "baby-killer" thing was pretty obviously a joke. I don't see any joke in the way you've used words like "fool", etc. You seem dead serious. And that's your right; but it's my right to point out your use of words and what I think that use demonstrates.

[Lief Erikson]

Got that transferred too .

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Just sent the new topic. I find it amusing . Shall we move?

Let's move the free-will discussion over there, I'd really like to continue it. Unless IRex is willing to admit that I don't deserve his anger when I hit him with a stick, that is.

I think the use-of-words part we can prob. wrap up here, if that's ok, because I for one am done with it. The ball's in his court. (and I hope he does a better job with it than the US Olympic men's bball team!)

[Lief Erikson]

I'm not quite done. I moved everything. I'm really enjoying applying this cool expression to myself .