Philosophy

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Yes, but I think it's an important point, and sometimes strong language puts the point across better. So on occasion, I'll use it.

I'll drop it for this is totally off topic . But for the record, I disapprove!

[Rían]

Humans are definitely difficult!

They're also wonderful, glorious, interesting, fun, amazing, etc.

But they are only part of reality, and I continue to fight against the opinion that some have that truth is necessarily difficult/complex. I think that there are simple truths, too. IMO, the difficulty of a concept has nothing to do with whether or not it is true.


EDIT - Lief, disapproval noted

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I continue to fight against the opinion that some have that truth is necessarily difficult/complex. I think that there are simple truths, too. IMO, the difficulty of a concept has nothing to do with whether or not it is true.

The difficulty is that many find it hard to understand that "truth" is a concept which has been created by humans and thus has a relative meaning to humanity as a whole and an equally relative meaning to each and every individual.

This leads to paradox (another human concept that has more to do with language than reality ) since truth, by definition, is universal but, in practice, never is.

In other words, "truths" seem to contradict one another and seem difficult/complex because we have given far more power to the word "truth" than humanity has the ability support.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

The difficulty is that many find it hard to understand that "truth" is a concept which has been created by humans and thus has a relative meaning to humanity as a whole and an equally relative meaning to each and every individual.

Do you mean that if humans weren't around, there would be no truth? Such as, the earth exists; normal horses have 4 legs; the dog just jumped into the lake, etc.

Sorry, brownie, you gotta support that more before I'll accept it!

[Spock]

"whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist."
R.W. Emerson

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Do you mean that if humans weren't around, there would be no truth? Such as, the earth exists; normal horses have 4 legs; the dog just jumped into the lake, etc.

Sorry, brownie, you gotta support that more before I'll accept it!

Would there be lies if humans weren't around? There wouldn't be "truth", as such, though of course there would be reality. Which was what I meant with my last post.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

The difficulty is that many find it hard to understand that "truth" is a concept which has been created by humans and thus has a relative meaning to humanity as a whole and an equally relative meaning to each and every individual.

The state of reality is viewed differently by different individuals. That doesn't mean reality is relative, but that people differ.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

This leads to paradox (another human concept that has more to do with language than reality ) since truth, by definition, is universal but, in practice, never is.

Odd that you say paradox has more to do with language than reality. We're defining truth as the state of reality. Truth is what is. It is what's so. People's views of what's so differs, but that doesn't mean that what's so differs. I might relax on my comfortable chair and say it's comfortable. Someone with a back problem might lounge on the chair and say it's uncomfortable. That doesn't mean truth, or the state of reality, changes. It means that people differ.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

In other words, "truths" seem to contradict one another and seem difficult/complex because we have given far more power to the word "truth" than humanity has the ability support.

Truth is simply what is. If I say you're a pleasant gentleman and someone else says you're an idiot, that doesn't alter the truth of what you are. The truth of what you are doesn't change based on what we think. We don't have that much power.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Falagar

Would there be lies if humans weren't around? There wouldn't be "truth", as such, though of course there would be reality. Which was what I meant with my last post.

There wouldn't be concepts of truth without life. There would still be truth though, because truth is simply the state of reality. It is what is. There wouldn't be lies though, because lies are claims that contradict reality. There wouldn't be anyone to claim anything that contradicts reality without life.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Spock

"whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist."
R.W. Emerson

I like that quote a lot.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

There wouldn't be concepts of truth without life. There would still be truth though, because truth is simply the state of reality. It is what is. There wouldn't be lies though, because lies are claims that contradict reality. There wouldn't be anyone to claim anything that contradicts reality without life.

So basically, you are equating truth with reality? Truth is a concept, created by the sentient human race, whilst reality is, well, reality. The state of things, the state of existence of matter. Truth and reality are two entirely different things.

[Lief Erikson]

I don't think so. To me a critically important meaning of truth is "the state of reality". You're a nice young lady. That's the state of reality, the truth . IMO. If someone else sees it differently, that doesn't mean that there are two clashing truths. It just means that humans differ. I might be wrong or the other person might be wrong. What we believe isn't necessarily truth- it's belief about truth. It's opinion about the state of reality. And the actual state of reality is the truth.

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

There wouldn't be concepts of truth without life. There would still be truth though, because truth is simply the state of reality. It is what is. There wouldn't be lies though, because lies are claims that contradict reality. There wouldn't be anyone to claim anything that contradicts reality without life.

have you ever seen a mother bird pretending to be hurt to draw a cat away from her nest? that is a subterfuge on the part of the bird, definetely part of nature. a contradiction of the reality that the said bird is uninjured. just something to consider.

[Lotesse]

That's a real good point there, rohirrim! Good one. Yes, it's true, there's all kinds of subterfuge in nature. Butterflies with fake eyes on the wings, animals that puff up to trick their enemies, the list goes on and on.

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

So basically, you are equating truth with reality? Truth is a concept, created by the sentient human race, whilst reality is, well, reality. The state of things, the state of existence of matter. Truth and reality are two entirely different things.

could you explain that to me? I think I missed something...let me think...hmm I'm not getting it. truth and reality seem quite synonymous. perhaps if I were less lazy I would look up the definitions, but as it stands could you possibly explain what difference you seem to see in them?

[Falagar]

There are many definitions of truth, I was refering to this definition:

2. A statement proven to be or accepted as true.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

have you ever seen a mother bird pretending to be hurt to draw a cat away from her nest?

No, but on a nature film I saw a bird do that to draw away a monitor lizard. Very interesting to see.

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

that is a subterfuge on the part of the bird, definetely part of nature. a contradiction of the reality that the said bird is uninjured. just something to consider.

But the truth is that this was a subterfuge. The truth is the reality that the bird tricked the cat. The truth to the cat would be that the cat was injured, but that is merely belief about the truth, it isn't the truth itself. Animals and people make mistakes about what the truth is.

[Lotesse]

(in response 2 Rohirrim)

Truth - a concept. Humans think about truth, they want to call something true or false.

Reality - the state of existence. Things exist, the universe exists, we exist. That is the reality of things, entirely independent of whether or not this person or that person believes reality to be true, false, or a mixture of both, or neither, or whatever.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Falagar

There are many definitions of truth, I was refering to this definition: 2. A statement proven to be or accepted as true.

Okay. I totally, emphatically disagree with that interpretation of truth. That's an interpretation I would never use or go by. I would use statements proven or accepted as true to make an argument, but these are simply statements that have (hopefully) strong evidence supporting that they are true. That doesn't make them any less beliefs about truth. Beliefs about truth is all such statements are.

That is why when people say, "you have your truth, I have my truth," or, "we all have our own different truths," I utterly, totally disagree. We all have our own beliefs and our own opinions. We don't have our own truths.

So I guess any disagreement we have (and this goes for Lotesse and Rohirrim too) largely just comes from different definitions of the word truth.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

That's a real good point there, rohirrim! Good one. Yes, it's true, there's all kinds of subterfuge in nature. Butterflies with fake eyes on the wings, animals that puff up to trick their enemies, the list goes on and on.

Absolutely right. It's true that they use subterfuge .

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

(in response 2 Rohirrim)

Truth - a concept. Humans think about truth, they want to call something true or false.

Reality - the state of existence. Things exist, the universe exists, we exist. That is the reality of things, entirely independent of whether or not this person or that person believes reality to be true, false, or a mixture of both, or neither, or whatever.

interesting, you know one might term the definition of "reality" as "absolute truth" or "TRUE truth" if that is your definition of course.
this is becoming an interesting exchange in semantics I must say.