The Official US President Election Thread

[sun-star]

Tiptoeing around offended Rian (you look extra angry to me because those smilies are red )...

I find it odd how much attention politicians' wives get. It seems to be entirely a question of image, because surely the wives don't actually have any influence when their husbands are elected. Is this focus quite a new phenomenon, i.e. media-created? I don't know anyone who cares what Cherie Blair does unless she's being especially annoying...

A British perspective from today's Telegraph:

Look at the last four Tory leaders' wives: Norma Major, Ffion Hague, Betsy Duncan Smith and now Sandra Howard. Truly lovely women, all of them – gracious, charming, elegant – and silent.

Absolutely, eerily silent. Not for them, the pushy, openly political partnership of the Blairs. They are (or try to give the impression of being) old-fashioned, supportive, stay-at-home wives. In fact, Ffion had a flourishing career of her own, but almost never alluded to it in public. If these women do give political advice or counsel to their husbands, they keep it a dark secret.

And voters say that they like it. Norma and Sandra particularly score highly over the pro-active Cherie. But do not be fooled for a minute. In a fit of sentimental nostalgia, people may say they prefer the image of the diffident Tory wife. But it is not the reality of their lives.

Memo to Tories: women do more than arrange flowers these days. (You may have noticed this when Margaret Thatcher was prime minister.) However much people may say that they find the Blairs' ménage distasteful, when voters look at them, they see something they recognise. Most wives, once their children have reached secondary school (and many before that), are working, if only because it is damn near impossible to afford a mortgage on one income.

So the lives of the Blairs - the two-career family, the worry over childcare, the need to balance home and work pressures – are the way it is for almost all of us now. Tory leaders, with their ethereal, perfectly groomed wives, look like something out of a 1950s television advert.

[The Gaffer]

The reactionary subtext reeks to high heaven! The hostility towards successful women is barely concealed. Typical Torygraph trash talk.

Cherie Blair has had her moments in public life, like that Carol Caplin cobblers. However, she's one of the most successful and influential lawyers in the country in her own right. She has taken on cases which set precedents AGAINST her husband's policy in the line of her duty. How many of these Tory trophy wives (and the comparison with Ffion Hague, the only woman who ever shagged her way to the bottom of the Tory party, is a hoot) would have that much gumption?

EDIT:

Rian, you're aboslutely right. I'd also advocate a man's right to stay at home and bake cookies too!!

I am also a big fan of Hilary Clinton; I hope she's your first woman president. She might have to tone down a bit first, but I could see it.

It's quite an eye-opener to see a genuinely charismatic figure (i.e. Bill Clinton) up there again; it made me realise what a bunch of rubbish performers the current lot are.

[sun-star]

I wonder how you would have reacted if I'd said it was from The Guardian

Subtext is such a useful word...

[Radagast]

I loathe Hillary Clinton. Those of you watching the Democrat Convention will no doubt be amused by the spectacle when John Kerry's wife stands up to speak, Hillary will fall to her knees sobbing, "It should be me! It should be meeee!" like some old girlfriend at a wedding.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And if a woman bakes cookies, does that mean she can't be her own person!?!?!?!

he he well depends how good your cookies are. I bake cookies but they arent so great so i guess i cant be my own women either.

But you took the bait on that I see so now I have to point out that I find it interesting that people fuss on BOTH sides about this issue depending on their political bend and ignore the other side. either they say the "traditional" home maker cookie baking tea party giving wife is nice and quaint and all but isnt really a legitimate career choice (what a lot of liberals are thinking when they see "typical" republican wives) OR they say those type A hard driving female wives who are lawyers and politicians and CEOs are all b*tches and they need to get back into the kitchen and stop pretending they can compete on equal footing with men (what a lot of conservatives think when they see wives like Hilary Clinton or Heinz). Of course both points of view are patently ridiculous (last time I checked republican Elizabeth Dole was doing pretty well for herself and Im gonna guess theres quite a few democratic representatives with home maker wives) but they persist in our society. So i was just throwing them out there Rian. so dont be mad at me be mad at society. But be mad both ways please.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

But you took the bait on that I see so now I have to point out that I find it interesting that people fuss on BOTH sides about this issue depending on their political bend and ignore the other side. either they say the "traditional" home maker cookie baking tea party giving wife is nice and quaint and all but isnt really a legitimate career choice (what a lot of liberals are thinking when they see "typical" republican wives) OR they say those type A hard driving female wives who are lawyers and politicians and CEOs are all b*tches and they need to get back into the kitchen and stop pretending they can compete on equal footing with men (what a lot of conservatives think when they see wives like Hilary Clinton or Heinz). Of course both points of view are patently ridiculous (last time I checked republican Elizabeth Dole was doing pretty well for herself and Im gonna guess theres quite a few democratic representatives with home maker wives) but they persist in our society. So i was just throwing them out there Rian. so dont be mad at me be mad at society. But be mad both ways please.

Let me remind you what you said:

by IRex, emphasis added
do people prefer a presidential wife who is her own person OR a cookie baker who toes the traditional first wife role to the tee like Laura Bush has?

The way you worded it, the "OR" indicates that a "cookie baker" can't be her own person. Hopefully you didn't mean it that way, but I'm sick of the false idea that a woman who chooses to stay home can't be "her own person".

It reminds me of a friend of mine, who was recently accosted by a person who has different ideas than my friend on some subjects, and was told "That's stupid to think like that! You should think like this! You should be your own person!" (and the accoster didn't even see the irony in what she was saying!)

I respect people's rights to make their own decisions, and I certainly encourage them to think things thru themselves. The "cookie-baker" term is a button pusher to me, tho, because you usually see it used in a derogatory manner, implying that the person is brainless and not "her own person", when in fact many women who stay home have made brave choices to do so, BECAUSE they, their own person, think it's the right thing to do, and they know they'll get blasted for it by the ridiculous people that say, basically, "think for yourself, as long as it looks like this!"

[Rían]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

The reactionary subtext reeks to high heaven! The hostility towards successful women is barely concealed.

And just HOW do you define "successful women", Gaffer? Hmmm? *gets rolling pin ready*

Rian, you're aboslutely right. I'd also advocate a man's right to stay at home and bake cookies too!!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by sun-star

Tiptoeing around offended Rian (you look extra angry to me because those smilies are red )...

OH, you can't offend me, sun-star! I know you too well! Sorry if I scared you My mad-smilies aren't red, tho - it seems like everyone has different smilies!?!

(ps - IRex, you don't offend me, either, because I know you. But I couldn't let that "cookie-baker" line go by without comment! And I'll "be mad" at anything that I think is not right, including wholesale knocking of career-women.)

(pps - is there really a woman's name of "Ffion"? I've seen the double-F in Brit last names, but never first names!)

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

(ps - IRex, you don't offend me, either, because I know you. But I couldn't let that "cookie-baker" line go by without comment! And I'll "be mad" at anything that I think is not right, including wholesale knocking of career-women.)

Well thats all I was saying. Consistancy is all i ask. Theres not nearly enough of it in the world. Certainly not in our society. As your example points out. And remember Martha Stewart's awful reputation as a vicious slave driving you know what (before she got thrown in the slammer)? And she was essentially the ultimate "cookie baker" wasnt she. Which just goes to show you that you can be pigeon holed no matter what you do.

[Snowdog]

It's quite an eye-opener to see a genuinely charismatic figure (i.e. Bill Clinton) up there again; it made me realise what a bunch of rubbish performers the current lot are.

I never thought a president has to be a good "performer". Unfortunatly in this 5 second soundbyte media age, politicians have to not only look good but talk good to be considered a "good" candidate or leader. But the party politics gives us a John Kerry to challenge a George Bush. The choice (for me anyways) is already decided.

Bush again.

[Carafin]

I'm Canadian, but I'm going to put in my 2 cents anyway
I read an article in the Toronto Sun aboout a week or two ago that compared Hilary to Bill (the Clintons). It said that while Bill was a charmer, naturally charismatic, Hilary had to plan every move she made, because that type of persona didn't come naturally to her. in reality, she is a very cold and hard person who has to groom the image that she wants to project.
Is this type of thing (personality difference, grooming etc) easy to see?
Do you see it many (or any) of the current candidates? If so do you notice it affecting people?
I don't keep at all up to date in current world events, so I will prolly sound like an ignoramus, but; Is the scandal about the incorrect Iraq info going to hurt Bush? I would think that it would (you know, imho). Out of curiousity: How did he handle the friendly fire incident (in Iraq)? since I only got the perspective of the Canadian media.
It is interesting to hear the defense of Bush, because a lot of people not in the US see him in a very negative light, and I must admit that I often get to the point that I wonder why he is in office at all. However, it is obvious he is doing something right, since so many defend him.

(wow, that was a stupid post, but please bear with me... Thanks)

[sun-star]

EDIT: This is Janny talking, not sun-star (still haven't worked out cookies )

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

(pps - is there really a woman's name of "Ffion"? I've seen the double-F in Brit last names, but never first names!)

Ffion, yes. Sort of posh really. Welsh. I can't think of any other names with a double 'f' start. (I'm sure people will now gaily contribute many...)

Incidentally, I saw Clinton, Bill do his talk at the Democrat conference thing; is his endorsement a help or hinderance to Kerry... is that whole thing behind him now? (Bear in mind I don't really know how large the effect of the affiar was... he denied sexual relations before I knew what sexual relations were... )

[Lizra]

People are what they are. I don't need an "analysis" from someone else to tell me my opinion. That's why I don't pay to much attention to all the secondary talking going on. If a person is up for my vote, I try to catch them speaking once or twice. I can decide whether I'm willing to give them a chance pretty quick.

Oh yes...I've choosen to stay home and bake cookies (if that's what I feel like doing that day! ) but I am VERY much my own person Just ask my husband and children..... After trying some of the many options out there, IMO, only a fool wouldn't go for the *stay home and bake cookies* option.

[Radagast]

That's wonderful, Lizra, in our million-mile an hour world, we forget that happiness can be found in the simplest of things...

[Lizra]

Chasing my tail wears me out!

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Lizra

Chasing my tail wears me out!

Yeah staying home and baking cookies (or just laying in bed!) beats the hell out of the rat race let me tell you. I wish I could do that myself. In fact I wish I was my cat. Now thats the life. Thats my ultimate goal. To lay around all day no worries and get fed by servents who clean out the box I crap in. I mean can you get much better then that? And to be completely amused by a string or a feather. And never ever having to worry about mortgages or the basement flooding or your transmission failing or the roof leaking or the air conditioning dieing or... Ah but I digress again...

Originally Posted by sun-star

Incidentally, I saw Clinton, Bill do his talk at the Democrat conference thing; is his endorsement a help or hinderance to Kerry... is that whole thing behind him now? (Bear in mind I don't really know how large the effect of the affiar was... he denied sexual relations before I knew what sexual relations were... )

Its a given Bill Clinton is going to be a major speaker at the democratic convention. Hes by far the only one (on either side) with any sort of charisma and they need him to pump up the base. Hes certainly not there to convert anyone though. Those that hate him still hate him. And sure Kerry has to be a little delicate in how closely he associates himself with Clinton but now 6 years after the Monica thing his taint isnt nearly as bad as it used to be (like when Gore was running) so having him endorse you is a good thing if you are a democrat and probably doesnt hurt you one bit among the undecideds.

[Lizra]

That's what I meant Irex, working, while running a household and raising children, and "trying" to nurture myself, and having a life-time love affair with my husband, and working on the fixer-upper to fulfill the American dream, and being a good daughter to my aging parents wore me out. So I dumped the job and lowered the standard of living. Things run more smoothly and I can enjoy making cookies every now and then. It's true though....my husband thinks he wants to trade places.....I really don't know how that would work though.

Bill Clinton is an endorsement for me. I didn't care about Monica then, and I sure as heck don't now. Hilary's problem....

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Radagast

That's wonderful, Lizra, in our million-mile an hour world, we forget that happiness can be found in the simplest of things...

Before kids, I had a top-secret clearance working as a software engineer in a military radar company. I worked in a research/brainstorming special team that came up with new concepts for user interfaces, mostly in military air traffic control, but also in air defense systems (one of the training simulators that I was primary designer on is over in Iraq).

When my husband and I had our first child, I quit my job to stay home with our child. I realize it's not an option for everyone, but for us it was, by lowering our standard of living. To us, our children were more important than my having a cool (and extremely well-paying) job.

We now have 3 kids.

Believe me, my job in the radar industry was MUCH simpler! But my job at home is more worthwhile.

[Insidious Rex]

So do people think Kerry's military drum beating approach at his convention was a good idea in courting the undecideds? It was like a pentagon who's who there.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

So do people think Kerry's military drum beating approach at his convention was a good idea in courting the undecideds? It was like a pentagon who's who there.

And Bush will have the same thing at the Republican Convention. Really doesn't mean much as to who Kerry had, because of his record on things. My brother sent me an e-mail say...

Oh and guys who wasted money sending me a campaign package. Yeah Stupid John Kerry. I threw that crap away the second i got it!!!

I my cousin who just joined the marines is undecided - but he is leaning toward Bush. When I talked to him - it seemed like most of the people in his recruitment office think Kerry is just doing a snowjob. he will wait until he sees the debates though.

I wanted to address the comments concerning Theresa and how she is her "own person". I find it rather ironic that she has always been a Republican and only changed her party affiliation in January. Her speech was laughable when one considers what her stands were BEFORE her husband won the primaries. But hey - everyone would consider it was rather odd to have a person running for president with his wife being of the opposite party. So much for her being opininated and not "toeing the line" like so many other candidates wives and being her "own person." Yeah - I know how she said that her reasons she gave were for the way the rebublicans treated Democratic Sen. Max Cleland of Georgia in 2002. If she was so upset - then why did she wait so long? Hmmmm - I think it has more to do with "stand by your man." while her being her "own woman" is just a joke and political ploy.

I wanted to add one other thing - my mother was a real estate agent who made more money than my father when we lived in NJ. When we moved out to Indiana - she started her own bookstore. She was a Republican - contrary to some people's opinions - there are MANY great individual Republican women - all anyone has to do is look at Condoleeza Rice. I can personally say that Condoleeza is a down to earth person also - because I had e-mailed her in 1999 while she was still provost of Stanford and she e-mailed me back and "signed" her name as just Condi Rice.

Dear Mr. Rosetta,

Thank you for your nice note. I loved my service in Washington but I'm not
sure when and if I'll ever return. I am, nonetheless, very glad that you
enjoyed the talk. All the best.

Condi Rice

I had sent that to her in February 1999 when I saw her give a speech on C-SPAN and was extremely impressed.