Theism

[emplynx]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


I sincerely doubt that. Neander is short, and very stocky, more stocky than the current genepool allows, with the exception of eskimos.

Key word exception!

Originally posted by FrodoFriend

It's less silly than the idea that some clay turned into a human.

Like saying it is silly for a bunch of metel and wire to be turned into a 747! A creator can do it!

[afro-elf]

does not prove a christoan god

and a 747 does not exhibit living properties from inorganic material

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by emplynx
Key word exception!

Excuse me, but still no. Read into the subject matter. Eskimos still have a higher brain vault, that is round; as opposed to low, flat, and truncated skulls characteristic of Neandertals. Also, the Neader muscle group is at least 1/3 GREATER than that of H. sapiens, even over Eskimos, who are cold adapted. This is why I mentioned Eskimos as an exception, NOT because they are the same size, or bigger, but because they are a modern example of cold adaptation. So, I'll say that again, still no.

[markedel]

I suppose the question is why oppose the concept of evolution? I don't see why it cannot be reconciled with belief in God.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by markedel
I suppose the question is why oppose the concept of evolution? I don't see why it cannot be reconciled with belief in God.

Kudos to you! Exactly what I was trying to say. We have these facts that ARE available to us, and suggest, an older, everchanging world model. HOWEVER, that does not in any way discount religion, or a divine beginning. As of yet, there is no conclusive proof either way, that the initial 'creation' was either divine or not. Personally, for me, the available evidence leads me to believe that the probability of a divine creation is none. But, I have been known to be wrong, and given the very real lack of information available to us (as scientists, academics and hobby-ists), it would be silly to completely discount the notion, because the current information does not point to it. So, in conclusion of my ramblings, I stand by what I have said - I don't believe in a divine origin - in lieu of new information. Again, kudos for picking up on what I was trying to say. Sometimes, even *I* don't get what I'm trying to say!!

[Tanoliel]

Exactly, markedel. I personally belive in evolution; I have looked up a lot about it and am very interested in it, though I want to say right now that I am in no way an expert. I have said that I do not know what God is; however, I find it perfectly plausible that a creator could start the universe off with a bang, give it laws and rules (i.e. genes and other such science) and then sit back and let it take off by itself, as it were. I know I'm going to get some interesting replies to that. Fire away (though not literally, please! )

(originally posted by emplynx)Like saying it is silly for a bunch of metel and wire to be turned into a 747! A creator can do it!

emplynx, for a creator to take a bunch of metal, wires, etc and make a 747 is entirely different than a creator taking a lump of clay and making a walking, breathing, thinking human being. The 747 is an object, and if left alone without something/someone to control it, would be simply a hunk of metal. Humans, on the other hand, are capable of living without other people telling them what to do. You may say that people have better lives with the suport of family, friends, even a God, and therin I would agree with you, but the support we get from other people to live our lives fully is different than the support (control and maintenance) than 747s get from us.
I think that made sense...
-tano

[markedel]

And where does one learn that genisis speaks of physical creation of anything? It doesn't really matter if God "made" us.

Without God what is the world-random

If life is random it has no purpose

If you have no purpose in life then why exist

Therefore you cannot exist without God

-and there is the (one of the) messages of chapter 1 of Genisis. No worries about evolution, the age of the Earth or dinosaur bones.

[emplynx]

Originally posted by markedel
I suppose the question is why oppose the concept of evolution? I don't see why it cannot be reconciled with belief in God.

Many people believe in the God/Evolution combination. That would work fine, if that is what God had intended, but he is pretty clear in Genesis what happened. :-)

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by emplynx

Many people believe in the God/Evolution combination. That would work fine, if that is what God had intended, but he is pretty clear in Genesis what happened. :-)

It rather depends on how you read Genesis. It can be taken two ways: literally, as a family tree. Or figuratively, suggesting evolution. There is an argument out there on the web somewhere, but I can't remember where exactly. I'll try and hunt it down, and post it somewhere. It was written from a christian viewpoint, and advocated the bible as a metaphor: the 7 days, being the different epochs created, and such.

[Arathorn]

My Jesuit friends say genesis is a parable.

[markedel]

Most Jewish commentators recommend not reading the first chapter literally.

[Nibs]

Originally posted by Anduril
Could it not be perhaps the feeling of confidence or commitment or contentment in a chosen moral system that you are feeling, and if this is the case, you are feeling similar to those who have come to the point in their lives where they are happy and content with their chosen beliefs?

I suppose you could phrase it that way, although I suspect you'd suspect, I feel it goes deeper than mere contentment with my beliefs. I see no point in discussing this further. It may seem hard-headed, but I won't be swayed.

I will, however, share some more blessings that I alluded to. I feel aided in anything I earnestly and righteously work for. A recent and simple example is that, well, I'm a late sleeper. I've had to get up far earlier than I'm used to lately, and I've never done well at awakening early, even with an alarm clock. I contritely requested that I be helped in the morning to the Lord and it's been granted. Now, as I said, that's a simple example, and one that you could point to other things for the result. The blessings often vary according to my present needs and what the Lord wants me to do.

I admire your frankness, as I said before, but I'm not sure if I'll look at this thread again... I'd much rather revel in similarities between beliefs than point out possible problems.

[emplynx]

Originally posted by markedel
Most Jewish commentators recommend not reading the first chapter literally.

Sorry. No can do.

[Tanoliel]

Okay..I admire people's determination, and I really do like reading this thread...but is it just me (and Nibs, it seems), or is this thread stuck in a hole? It is very interesting....but...well...I don't know. It's a little stuck. What was the original purpose of the thread? Because I don't think it was arguing about evolution vs. genesis.
Sorry if this is blunt...I don't mena to be harsh and all, but I couldn't think of a better way to say it without adding in a lot more um's and ah's and elipses...
-tano

[Earniel]

While waiting for the bloody project to print itself, can't make myself stay away from the entmoot.

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Excuse me, but last time I checked, the lion was separate from the tiger, and the common moggie. They can't interbreed, therefore they are a separate species. Voila, evolution, macrobiotically. Ditto for a Wolf, and a fox, and a labrador.

hate to break this to you, but lions and tigers CAN interbreed. The result is rare, but it's there. It's called a liger and I'm so not making this up.

[Tanoliel]

That is true, Earniel...but I'm not sure if the point is whether they CAN interbreed as opposed to whether they DO. In captivity, lions and tigers have been bred (although the resulting offspring is sterile), but in the wild, they are separate species and don't mate with each other voluntarily.
-tano

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Eärniel
While waiting for the bloody project to print itself, can't make myself stay away from the entmoot.



hate to break this to you, but lions and tigers CAN interbreed. The result is rare, but it's there. It's called a liger and I'm so not making this up.

My mistake. So, very occasionally, lions and tigers can interbreed (I'll have to look it up, sounds interesting!), but they are still reproductively isolated from each other, not biologically, but behaviourally, so the argument still stands. My mistake, though for not checking that one out more thoroughly. Thanks Earniel.

[Nibs]

That brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "lions and tigers and bears; oh my!"

Soon we'll have bions, tears, bigers, tions, and lears running amok over the place! Build a shelter while you still can!

[FrodoFriend]

Originally posted by markedel
And where does one learn that genisis speaks of physical creation of anything? It doesn't really matter if God "made" us.

Without God what is the world-random

If life is random it has no purpose

If you have no purpose in life then why exist

Therefore you cannot exist without God

-and there is the (one of the) messages of chapter 1 of Genisis. No worries about evolution, the age of the Earth or dinosaur bones.

OK, how about this:

God knows everything.
God knows the future of humanity.
The future of humanity is set - otherwise known as fate.
If fate is set, we have no free will.
If we have no free will, life has no purpose.
If you have no purpose in life, why exist?
Therefore, you cannot exist with God.

[Starr Polish]

FF, can you give a definite purpose of life? If you can, I could see where you are coming from in that argument.

The future of humanity is obviously not set in stone. The world was intended to be a paradise, and death was not supposed to occur, but because Eve gave into the devil's temptations...and yadda yadda yadda, you know all that.

We have free will, and we are in charge of our futures, to some extent (others also alter it, like the college board on whether or not they accept you). Don't you think that if, saying God does exist and we didn't have free will, that we would all believe in Him?

Disclaimer: All of what is said is my belief, I'm not saying you have to agree.