03-24-2005, 08:03 PM | #181 | ||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-24-2005, 08:06 PM | #182 | ||||
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That can't be a particularly positive experience. Quote:
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03-24-2005, 08:24 PM | #183 | ||
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How is it then, according to you, that there are examples of people who once, but no longer feel those impulses? If it's chemicals in the brain, that sounds rather final too.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-24-2005, 08:33 PM | #184 | |||||
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I don't know anything about these programs either, but they don't seem like a positive force to me. Quote:
I guess you and I have diametrically opposite views on this one. (Despite us both being Christian.) Um... how about a pint in the Café? I'm buying. And by "buying" I mean typing in that I'm buying you a beer.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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03-24-2005, 08:57 PM | #185 | ||||||
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Sees' Chocolate sounds like a really, really good idea though, if you're buying .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-25-2005, 06:00 AM | #186 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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03-25-2005, 07:45 AM | #187 |
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Maybe they can, maybe they can't. It's irrelevant. In fact, it's a red herring because there's an underlying premise to the question that homosexuality is some sort of disorder.
For me, there's a pernicious political agenda in this debate, driven by an unholy alliance of religious fundamentalism and prejudice, which should have no place in how a secular society regulates its citizens' behaviour. |
03-25-2005, 08:05 AM | #188 | ||||||||
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I will say that I definitely think the situation is complex. They could truly believe that they are no longer gay because they want it so much. There are gay people who actually got married to someone of the opposite gender and had children even. This doesn't mean they stopped being gay, but they certainly did enter a straight relationship. If someone wants to do that that's their affair Quote:
However, I strongly disagree. A healthy, loving relationship between two gay people is as beautiful and wonderful and a healthy, loving relationship between two straight people. Quote:
I belong to a very liberal Anglican congregation. There is a significant 'chunk' of the Anglican church that sees no problem at all with homosexuality, many of whom are much more versed in the Bible than I am. (There are also significant chunks of the United and Lutheran churches that have no issue with homosexuality IIRC.) From what I have seen though, the six passages in the Bible that do say something about homosexuality are not very convincing as to its wrongness (at least to me and all other Christians who legitimately believe being gay is not sinful). They obviously have convinced a lot of people, but I think they can easily be interpreted either way. (Now is one of those times I wish I had studied the Bible thouroughly, or at least read it in its entirety. This doesn't make my opinion wrong or unsupported, it's just that I don't think I'll be able to articulate it very well. We'll see. ) Quote:
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If being gay was a choice, that wouldn't bother me at all, I simply think it is not so. As I said earlier, I think it's a chemical development in the brain. That means you can't inherit it (you don't always inherit genes, and sometimes they are not expressed, but I don't want to go there ), but also that you are born with your sexual orientation. EDIT: Cross-posted with The Gaffer.
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03-25-2005, 10:23 AM | #189 |
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* waves to Nurv *
I can understand why this issue might be difficult for Christians, and it's refreshing to hear the non-Evangelical viewpoint. You might be interested to know, Nurv, (if you don't already) that many Bible scholars believe that the texts proscribing homosexuality have been misinterpreted. Here's a link if you're interested in following up the translation debate: religioustolerance.org |
03-25-2005, 01:02 PM | #190 |
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People who don't believe in hell say the same thing about that. I've heard church leaders take an extremely unlikely translation of one word from one gospel, that all tradition and history have rejected, and go haywire with it. I attend the Episcopal Church .
Nurvi, I believe quite firmly that liberalism (which fills the Episcopal Church) is a modern day heresy. This is particularly true when it is taken to extremes. I attend an Episcopal Church and hear the gay acceptance word at least once a month. I have debated and discussed religious matters in the middle of a group of liberals. I don't know of any church leaders that aren't divorced (which breaks clearly spelled out Biblical principles). Many are having affairs. Many of their youth believe that anything goes, that every religion is as good as every other, and every course of action equally good. It's a religious quagmire. As I told one of their pastors when debating the subject with her, "if we reject clearly explained Biblical teachings, the Bible is useless to us. We're going to do what we want, regardless of its guidance." We were debating sexual immorality. She and another Episcopalian were making jokes about what kind of youth leader we have. As I am an assistant youth leader, I expressed my concern that we not have someone sexually immoral in that leading position. That's how that debate started. It was quite polite really, believe it or not. But rearranging Biblical truths so that they always say what you want them to say is obviously wrong- and that's what the Episcopal Church is doing. I think the homosexuality thing is one more offshoot of natural liberal views. Some reject hell teachings too. They reject almost all the teachings on sexual morality. Most of them do not believe in God's power where it concerns the miraculous- I've heard the pastor publicly trouncing things like prophecy. I know from personal experience that prophecy is a real spiritual reality. He said it was the best guesses of people at the time. Among the youth I suppose the liberalism is at its strongest. The youth teenagers believe anything goes, your beliefs are equal with my beliefs, you have your truth and I have my truth. It is a major heresy. Nurvi, you don't want to be part of that. The Bible would be reduced from God's Word to "Some Thoughts Good People Once Held." The Bible is a piece of living dynamite. It has the power to transform lives, as it did mine. When I encountered God for the first time, I had not read the Bible in months at all, and not in years of my own free will. Finally I flipped the pages open, and instantly every word I read spoke directly to my own situation, to my own heart. Everything I had gone through in my recent times of darkness, God sympathized with, his heart there with mine. The words seemed almost to leap off the page. That's God's Holy, Living Word. Countless other people through the ages have had their lives transformed through reading the words on those pages. They lose sexual or drug addictions, they feel true freedom that utterly changes their lives. The Bible is God's Word, not "Some Thoughts Good People Once Held." If you're a Christian, you believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God. He said, "It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear then for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law." As God's Word I have experienced it. Whenever I have questioned that something in it might be God's Word, God leaps on me and explains it. The Word is truth. That is something we should live with, something we should grow with and experience. That's why we have to accept it for what it says, not for how we would make it. If we change it so that it says what we want to hear, the Bible is worthless. It has no power to change, no power to transform. If we have doubts about something or if we do not understand how something in it can be good or true, asking God is the key. It says in the scripture that the Holy Spirit will illuminate the words for us and grant us understanding. I mentioned that to that pastor also when I was debating with her, after she said that sometimes it was difficult to know how to interpret the scriptures.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-25-2005 at 06:00 PM. |
03-25-2005, 01:12 PM | #191 | |||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-25-2005, 03:54 PM | #192 |
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It is quite possible there are multiple causes of homosexuality. I know people who try to make themselves feel homosexual impulses and people who appear to have been born with it. But one of the causes does appear (in the light of current evidence) to have something to do with hormone levels in the mother during pregnancy. Whether that is the only cause is obviously uncertain, but it does seem to suggest that for some at least, it is NOT an alterable decision.
In addition, I do not feel that religious stances as religious stances really have a place in this debate. Why? Because not everyone has the same religious beliefs. Clearly, religious beliefs shape (and are a major part of) social beliefs, but saying "My church does not sanction X, and therefore, in order to raise my children safe from X, I must have this law" is poor lawmaking for a nation like the United States. I am Jewish. Say I would greatly like to keep kosher and have my children do so. However, this is made much harder by the fact that people eat shellfish, pork, and other non-kosher dishes, and do not separate meat and milk. This does not mean that I should be able to force everyone else to conform to me in order that I might raise my children more easily. This would not prevent my belief from being that, for my temple and my fellow Jews, we should not eat such things. But that would not be a national law.
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03-25-2005, 04:25 PM | #193 |
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Count, my most recent post is indeed highly religious. However, it was responding to Nurvi's religious arguments. It was not something meant to be in the least convincing to nonbelievers. My primary posts on this thread are nonreligious in content.
I'm desirous of seeing your evidence supporting the theory that hormones of the mother at pregnancy are a cause for homosexual instincts.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
03-25-2005, 05:04 PM | #194 | ||||||
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Well said CC!
Liberalism is the new heresy!? I have to admit that that statement struck me as funny, but I do respect you a lot. I'm not trying to diminish your beliefs. Given that you and I seem to have diametrically opposite views, despite both being Anglicans, I guess it makes sense that my Christian beliefs seem heretical to you. (BTW would you mind terribly editing some paragraph breaks into post #190? I really want to read all of it, but the block paragraphs hurt my eyes.) Quote:
Just because the views are fundementally different from yours does not mean we're rearranging Biblical truths. It means conservative and liberal Christians interpret the Bible differently. We didn't just make up a new chapter in the Bible to suit our needs or whatever, there are scholarly and supported liberal interpretations of the Bible. The Gaffer's link is one such place. Quote:
EDIT: *waves to Lief in cross-posting* (That's a nice habit Gaffer. ) Quote:
What do you think? Quote:
EDIT2: Oh I see. Yes, I too would like to see this theory expounded. I've never heard of it before.
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 03-25-2005 at 05:08 PM. |
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03-25-2005, 05:35 PM | #195 | |
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Well, first let me say I HATE using Google searches for this, but I don't really have journal citations to look through, so Google it is.
http://www.neoteny.org/a/homosexuality.html http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus4.htm These give some summaries of research into the causes of homosexuality. The first one has some more about specifically maternal hormones. EDIT: Actually, my college allows me to access some medical journals. From a 2002 article in "Current Women's Health Reports" in 2002 (Issue 2, pages 457-463) by Barbara L Frankowski MD MPH at UVermont comes this quote: Quote:
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03-25-2005, 05:42 PM | #196 |
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And the overlap between the GLB thread and this one has occurred. These two threads are becoming almost indistinguishable.
Since it seems not to matter where things are really put anymore - I figured I'd throw this out... Often times it's said that aids is a punishment to homosexuals. So I'm wondering - using the logical conclusion of cause and effect - what the hell did cows do to deserve Mad Cow Disease?
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03-25-2005, 05:50 PM | #197 | ||
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Haha! It was all those innocent blades of grass they slaughtered...
Well, moral discussions and whatnot seem to be in this thread instead of (not in addition to) GLB now, even though I agree there is an overlap.
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03-25-2005, 05:53 PM | #198 |
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Well, the overlap creep was inevitable, wasn't it? I mean, since someone (whether or not it was Lief) was going to bring up the causes of homosexuality in discussing their marriages. Bound to happen
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03-25-2005, 05:54 PM | #199 | |||||||
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I'll start now on adding those paragraphs to the other post.
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03-25-2005, 05:58 PM | #200 | |
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