The Singers Thread

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I just realized after reading what I wrote that it sounds like I'm making excuses... I'm really not. Just trying to be realistic and figure out if I have what it takes. I mean I know my friend does. He's incredible. But I listen to myself and I really question.... because I don't want to be stupid and go for it if there isn't a chance, you know? But at the same time... argh. I am willing to work so hard to get it, if there's a possibility I can have it...

I don't think you're making excuses. The fact that you're trying to see where you realistically fit in the grand scheme of things is important. As for having "a chance", i think anyone who works hard at it can have a place in it all. Remember it's not all about the Met. And not making it to the Met doesn't mean rock-bottom for you, either - there are many levels and gradations in between. I know of some people who are very happy having carved out a regional career for themselves, for instance.

I totally understand about your friend, though. I had a friend like that in college, too. She could do anything, from musical theater belting to full-lyric opera. She was a heavier voice type. When we did our Rosenkavalier scene where i was Sophie, she was the Marschallin. She was also younger than me, which was frustrating in itself because at the time i thought that all the older, "classier" roles would go to me as i was older, but what i didn't get yet at that time was that it was all about voice type (and body type, to an extent - i'm petite and look young). As a light voice, roles like Marschallin, the Mozart Donnas, Contessa, etc would have left me with a short vocal lifespan and a good candidate for vocal cord surgery Not worth it!

I will say I'm proud of that... I've been working really hard the last week or two, and particularly the last five days, and I'm going strong as far as my music is concerned with learning/translating/etc.

Excellent I have a bunch of new stuff i want to learn too - all of it pre-1800

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Excellent I have a bunch of new stuff i want to learn too - all of it pre-1800

Do tell!!!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Remember it's not all about the Met.

Says the early music soprano. But seriously, speaking as a layman, I have to say the Met comes across as a bit silly and stodgy. Particularly when I was reading Opera News! My God, the entire magazine was just about how awesome the Met was, and it really started to make me sick.

[Tessar]

OH!!! Dowland! I love his music... it's so beautiful. I have a really weird CD of his stuff where some tenor who wasn't all that great recorded some of Dowland's pieces... and oddly enough there is a saxophone in the accompaniment . Yeah... it's weird. But I LOVE the music!


I think this new teacher might actually be pretty darn good. She's stretching my upper range, which I like, and she's helping me release some of the tension in the upper notes.

She's definitely going to be fabulous for my diction. Today we worked on In Der Fremde and spent most of our lesson on just speaking it and trying to get my (unfortunately atrocious!) diction corrected.

One kind of cool thing is that we were singing In Der Fremde and I was having some trouble with a little double-gracenote area, and she said, "It would probably help if you sang it a little softer."

I had been holding my voice back anyways, but I realized then that I actually had to hold it back even more. It was... kind of exciting . Without any pushing or trying, in fact trying not to be loud, I was actually too loud anyways! Hehehe.... I never used to have that problem. It's nice to know my voice isn't too tiny.


Even if she is good, though, I intend to continue with the coaching and whatnot and (hopefully) eventually tell her about it.

Remember it's not all about the Met. And not making it to the Met doesn't mean rock-bottom for you, either - there are many levels and gradations in between. I know of some people who are very happy having carved out a regional career for themselves, for instance.

But you know, at the same time that I am very aware that the Met. is not the be-all-end-all of having a career... It sort of is all about the Met!! I might never sing there, but I feel like if I can prepare as if I'm headed there then maybe, just maybe I can push myself to a high level. I might never make it to the Met, but if I don't try then I certainly never will.

The thing is... I don't want to be a great singer so that people will know who I am. I want to be a great singer because I want people to sit back and be truly moved by the music that they hear. I want them to say, "WOW! What an incredible sound!" because even though I don't really give a crap if they remember my name, or my face, I want them to remember the feeling the music gave them.

My hope for Pirates isn't that when I start to sing everyone will snatch up their programs and go, "Oh my God, what an amazing Baritone, I must memorize his name and go shower praise and adulation on him!" But that they will be so entertained that years from now they'll go, "Do you remember that police sergeant from the Pirates of Penzance production we saw? Wasn't that great?"

In a way I'm not so much trying to prepare myself for the real Met... it's like a metaphorical Met. I just think of the people who make it to the Met as being the 'cream of the crop' and that's how good I want to be.

It's like when my friend who's such an amazing singer sings something, or when I listen to someone like Placido Domingo or Mario Lanza and it's just painfully beautiful and fills my heart with everything that's good about music. I want to give that to people, because anyone can hurt your feelings or make you feel like crap, but I want to be one of the people who can do something to give that beautiful feeling in your soul back to you. It's like being a musical doctor, you know? I don't feel like I have the gift of wanting to be a doctor or nurse to help people that way, but I hope that maybe I can help people through performing amazingly.

And the thing is, to make that music you have to be around other incredible musicians, and you usually find those people at the top. So if I want to make that kind of music and move people that way, then I need to strive to make it up there.
Annnnyways. That's my thing. Maybe it's ridiculous and impossible, but there it is.

[Voronwen]

That Dowland cd of yours does sound like it must be weird!

I personally love things with period instruments. I'm a sucker for "historically-informed performance" and all that sort of stuff But i'm a spoiled brat!

Originally Posted by Tessar

I think this new teacher might actually be pretty darn good. She's stretching my upper range, which I like, and she's helping me release some of the tension in the upper notes.

Good to hear!

I had been holding my voice back anyways, but I realized then that I actually had to hold it back even more. It was... kind of exciting . Without any pushing or trying, in fact trying not to be loud, I was actually too loud anyways! Hehehe.... I never used to have that problem. It's nice to know my voice isn't too tiny.

And how can a baritone voice be tiny, anyway? Sopranos can be tiny. Tenors can be tiny. I've never heard a tiny baritone!

Even if she is good, though, I intend to continue with the coaching and whatnot and (hopefully) eventually tell her about it.

You know, if you told her about the coaching, she would probably understand and even consider you a more serious student for it. I don't think she'd be upset about it at all. It's something that all singers come to eventually, when they reach a certain level of awareness.

But you know, at the same time that I am very aware that the Met. is not the be-all-end-all of having a career... It sort of is all about the Met!! I might never sing there, but I feel like if I can prepare as if I'm headed there then maybe, just maybe I can push myself to a high level.

That's completely understandable. I can relate. I never had any actual aspirations of singing at the Met, but i've always aspired toward singing as well as those who do sing at that level.

I want to be a great singer because I want people to sit back and be truly moved by the music that they hear.

I want them to remember the feeling the music gave them.

Agreeing 100%

In a way I'm not so much trying to prepare myself for the real Met... it's like a metaphorical Met. I just think of the people who make it to the Met as being the 'cream of the crop' and that's how good I want to be.

Again, i completely agree.

It's like when my friend who's such an amazing singer sings something, or when I listen to someone like Placido Domingo or Mario Lanza and it's just painfully beautiful and fills my heart with everything that's good about music. I want to give that to people, because anyone can hurt your feelings or make you feel like crap, but I want to be one of the people who can do something to give that beautiful feeling in your soul back to you.

Yes That's where it's at!

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

That Dowland cd of yours does sound like it must be weird!

I personally love things with period instruments. I'm a sucker for "historically-informed performance" and all that sort of stuff But i'm a spoiled brat!

I adore early music recordings where they bring in things like Viola da Gamba[sp?], harpsichord, and things like that. I dunno what the 'real deal' would've sounded like, but I do prefer what we think is the more 'authentic' sound vs. the way they did it back in the 50's 60's etc... I heard a John Vickers recording this afternoon of my Man Is For The Woman Made piece by Purcell and it was atrocious. No ornamentation whatsoever, he blasted his way through it with weird little dynamic places (just poor phrasing choices, IMO), and it almost sounded like a musical theater or honky-tonk version! O_o Weirdness!!!

And how can a baritone voice be tiny, anyway? Sopranos can be tiny. Tenors can be tiny. I've never heard a tiny baritone!

It's definitely possible! I have a friend who's a Bass with a pretty enough voice, but it is VERY small. He won our local NATS competition for his division because his voice is beautiful, and he sang very well with interesting song choices... but that voice is itty bitty. Not an operatic voice by any stretch of the imagination, in my opinion.

I think you just don't hear small baritone voices on the stage because honestly when your voice is that low you've gotta have at least a medium sized voice or you'll never be heard. We're not like tenors or sopranos who can get away with a little voice because of the frequencies cutting through... if you're a baritone you better have a bigger voice or you will never be heard. Same for mezzos, I'd assume.

In thinking about it, I can come up with a number of tenor and soprano voices who have great careers and small voices, but really no baritone or mezzo voices like that. I think the lower voices just have to be bigger if they want to be on stage.

You know, if you told her about the coaching, she would probably understand and even consider you a more serious student for it. I don't think she'd be upset about it at all. It's something that all singers come to eventually, when they reach a certain level of awareness.

I hope so. I'll give it at least a few weeks so that I can truly prove to her just how hard of a worker I am and how much I want this to work out. I think she was impressed with the amount of work I've already done, and I hope to continue to ramp up my level to productivity.

I actually decided to take a little more time on my song reports just to cram more information into them. I could've turned them in, but my hope is that if I can make them really detailed I'll not only benefit musically, but she'll realize that I am totally unafraid of hard work and will trust me and work with me for it.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I adore early music recordings where they bring in things like Viola da Gamba[sp?], harpsichord, and things like that. I dunno what the 'real deal' would've sounded like, but I do prefer what we think is the more 'authentic' sound

I LOVE the sound of the viola da gamba! It's so haunting and melancholy, in a good way. It has to be one of my favorite instruments for that reason.

vs. the way they did it back in the 50's 60's etc... I heard a John Vickers recording this afternoon of my Man Is For The Woman Made piece by Purcell and it was atrocious. No ornamentation whatsoever, he blasted his way through it with weird little dynamic places (just poor phrasing choices, IMO), and it almost sounded like a musical theater or honky-tonk version! O_o Weirdness!!!

Oh, Yuck!!!!

I think you just don't hear small baritone voices on the stage because honestly when your voice is that low you've gotta have at least a medium sized voice or you'll never be heard. We're not like tenors or sopranos who can get away with a little voice because of the frequencies cutting through... if you're a baritone you better have a bigger voice or you will never be heard. Same for mezzos, I'd assume.

In thinking about it, I can come up with a number of tenor and soprano voices who have great careers and small voices, but really no baritone or mezzo voices like that. I think the lower voices just have to be bigger if they want to be on stage.

That very well could be it...

[Tessar]

So, apparently my new voice teacher is friends with one of my favorite baritones, and with my favorite dramatic soprano Christine Brewer. O_o You know... the Christine Brewer who sings at the Met. and internationally and friggin' EVERYWHERE? I mean good Lord...

I do like her... I think she may be an even better teacher than I initially gave her credit for. I seem to be over the F# 'hump' I'd been at, and the G is getting more consistent. It'll be a while till it's really "in my voice" though.


GREAT NEWS!!!! I introduced her to the idea of one (unfortunately not the one I wanted to!) coach this morning because the topic came up. We were talking about falsetto... I have a strange thing in my voice where I have difficulty humming above an A3, and by the time I hit C#4 my hum is strained and thin. I've worked it pretty hard, and I can't seem to make it want to work. She said it's not uncommon for men who have no falsetto to have difficulty humming... I told her I have a pretty extensive falsetto, and after I demonstrated it for her she said, "I'd love to see if we can get a little of that falsetto to blend into your low voice because I think it would free up your high voice."

Well is there a more perfect opening then that? I said that I'd coached with an early music soprano over the summer doing falsetto stuff, and that the coach had said the same thing... and I said how much it had helped my high voice. I asked if I could continue to see that coach, and she somewhat hesitantly said yes. So one coach is now out in the open.

Thank you for the encouragement to mention the coaching, Voronwen. I don't think I would've even mentioned it otherwise.


I hope that given time, maybe even waiting till next semester, I can bring up my other coach. At this point I think that might be all he needs to be... I think this teacher will be a strong technician for my voice, and she's just building more on the things my summer teacher was so amazing at... so... *shrug*

I have no intention of giving him up as a mentor, though. I mean come on. Incredible ear, great technician, he and I understand each other so well, we communicate well, he's even my friggin' voice type, and he genuinely seems to want to help me towards building a career... coaches like that don't just grow on trees, ya know .

So I feel all at once frustrated by my vocal problems, but also incredibly blessed. It's so weird how it's like all of these great teachers have suddenly appeared out of nowhere to help me, you know? O_o I really feel like I'm being guided towards this path, however it turns out in the end.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Thank you for the encouragement to mention the coaching, Voronwen. I don't think I would've even mentioned it otherwise.

Aww, you're very welcome I'm glad that i could be of help.

It's so weird how it's like all of these great teachers have suddenly appeared out of nowhere to help me, you know? O_o I really feel like I'm being guided towards this path, however it turns out in the end.

Well....YAY! And it sounds like your new teacher has some connections in the business, which is never a bad thing. You're on the right track.

[Voronwen]

Well, i practiced until my voice was tired today. I know, bad girl But it made me happy.

Of course, then my sister called with all manner of things to talk about regarding the details of her wedding, which led to even more vocal fatigue I'll be ok.

[Tessar]

How's the voice now? All better?

I often find it surprising how resilient my voice can be. It seems like when I use good technique, even if I way overuse my voice, it's usually back to almost normal the next day. The problem is when I don't use good technique, then I need to rest it for a few days.

Know what else was really interesting to hear? Apparently even Christine Brewer (I heard this from an interview) who has a HUGE dramatic soprano voice... says her voice is very delicate. According to her, if she doesn't warm up enough she can lose her voice very quickly, and if she doesn't stay right on top of her technique she can have trouble making it through even one aria. Isn't that weird? O_o I always assumed bigger voices were naturally more resilient, because I've heard some big ol' voices that have horrible technique, but they manage to keep belting out that way for hours. But apparently even some big voices need to be careful .


So, I'm really glad that I'm planning to keep my 'secret' voice teacher because GUESS WHAT? Apparently they're only hiring my official one for a year. She has high hopes that her contract will be continued after that and that she can get on a tenure track... but my school is EXTREMELY bad about tenure. Teachers who have been there for years don't have it.

Oh well. It's an annoyance, but at this point I'm not sure that it's anything more than an annoyance so long as I can keep up with good coaches.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Know what else was really interesting to hear? Apparently even Christine Brewer (I heard this from an interview) who has a HUGE dramatic soprano voice... says her voice is very delicate. According to her, if she doesn't warm up enough she can lose her voice very quickly, and if she doesn't stay right on top of her technique she can have trouble making it through even one aria. Isn't that weird? O_o I always assumed bigger voices were naturally more resilient, because I've heard some big ol' voices that have horrible technique, but they manage to keep belting out that way for hours. But apparently even some big voices need to be careful .

Wow, that IS weird! I too have always assumed that the "bigger" voices were made of tougher stuff. I guess everyone's different!

That said, my small soprano voice is feeling much better Usually i've recovered from vocal fatigue within a day. Yesterday i was fine when i woke up and was able to do some more practicing late in the morning, which went very well and felt wonderful. I think the day before i was having a technical issue relating to placement that was getting me off my usual track, hence the fatigue. I had some minor dental work earlier that morning so i probably didn't have my usual control over the finer points of placement, and may have been slightly overcompensating with the throat. I probably shouldn't have been singing at all. But yesterday's practice made up for it.

So, I'm really glad that I'm planning to keep my 'secret' voice teacher because GUESS WHAT? Apparently they're only hiring my official one for a year.

Oh my Well in this case, yes, look out for yourself. You'll need some consistency while your school plays musical chairs (no pun intended ) with the music staff.

[Voronwen]

Tessar, et al - Has anyone here spent all this time on classical training and then decide they want to do something completely different with it all?

Actually what i'm thinking about isn't all that different, if you make the jump from 'early music'. But i also have a feel for Celtic style music and, much of it is written in a soprano range. I seem to be able to sing in this style and even ornament much in the same way as i would some early music, ie. Dowland songs. It's just a style where i can be expressive in some ways that i cannot be within the confines of 'classical' technique - even though all good technique works the same (as the voice only works correctly one way) and the classical background can only serve as a foundation for other things.

I wouldn't entirely want to throw away all that i can do as a classical singer, though. It'd be more of a crossing-over thing.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Tessar, et al - Has anyone here spent all this time on classical training and then decide they want to do something completely different with it all?

I originally sort of wanted to be the next Loreena McKennitt . I adore her voice, and she and Enya were and still are major influences on my musical taste. I wouldn't say they're so much 'vocal' influences any more since I'm still working so hard towards opera, but I love them both. Enya not as much as I used to... I'm not too fond of her latest CDs. But her old school stuff is awesome.

Actually what i'm thinking about isn't all that different, if you make the jump from 'early music'. But i also have a feel for Celtic style music and, much of it is written in a soprano range. I seem to be able to sing in this style and even ornament much in the same way as i would some early music, ie. Dowland songs. It's just a style where i can be expressive in some ways that i cannot be within the confines of 'classical' technique - even though all good technique works the same (as the voice only works correctly one way) and the classical background can only serve as a foundation for other things.

Just so long as you don't join Celtic Woman . I can't stand those little sissy sopranos! I'm not saying they don't have beautiful voices, because to a woman they do. But oh my God, I can't even get through one song... their voices are pretty but SO boring -_-. There's one pretty good one, the red-head, but even she's sort of meh IMO. I would expect voices like that in college, not on a stage. Like Hayley Westenra... beeeeautiful instrument, but boring as all get out. Every single phrase is shaped the same way with no dynamic differences... it starts tiny, swells a little, then pulls back at the end of the phrase. Of course they're all very young, but if you can't do it then you shouldn't be singing that kind of music.

I'm probably just bitter . But I feel that they get far too much credit just because they have good instruments, and people overlook how poor their musicality often is. Like some of the 'star' students at my school... great voices, but also pretty much the exact same voice they've had since they arrived. They just don't do what it takes to improve musically or vocally.

I think a great example of a small, pure voice is Sissel... not sure how to spell her last name. Kejrkbo? She's not my favorite voice, but she's extremely musical, where as I feel as if the Celtic Women are all pretty voices without much else.

I wouldn't entirely want to throw away all that i can do as a classical singer, though. It'd be more of a crossing-over thing.

Definitely. I think you can do that . Although if I were you I would focus more on the baroque music. Celtic music is a very small nitch, at least from what I've observed, and I think finding venues would be even more challenging than to find work as a baroque soprano. Plus it seems like the really successful ones (Loreena, Enya, Orla, etc.) all have some instrument they play, like piano or harp. Except maybe Moya Brennan, Enya's sister, but I think the major part of her successful beginning was being in the band Clannad... she didn't need to play because her family band was so full of talented musicians.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I originally sort of wanted to be the next Loreena McKennitt . I adore her voice, and she and Enya were and still are major influences on my musical taste. I wouldn't say they're so much 'vocal' influences any more since I'm still working so hard towards opera, but I love them both. Enya not as much as I used to... I'm not too fond of her latest CDs. But her old school stuff is awesome.

No way!! They are my two favorites, too! And definitely, as a soprano, vocal influences, though i think more subconsciously than deliberately.

Just so long as you don't join Celtic Woman .

Hahaha! I do know what you mean though about "pretty yet boring" voices. Don't worry, that's not me. My own voice always had more individuality and expressiveness than that, and dare i say it, it's not as small as that, though no one would call it a 'big' voice unless they knew absolutely nothing about singing. (My mother-in-law did that once, but she never had a lesson in her life, her only experience with singing having been a church choir singing "soprano 2" with a very weak and untrained voice - and i say that not derisively, but as a point of reference. She thinks because i can "sing opera" that it means i have a "big voice". yeah right? )

Definitely. I think you can do that . Although if I were you I would focus more on the baroque music. Celtic music is a very small nitch, at least from what I've observed, and I think finding venues would be even more challenging than to find work as a baroque soprano. Plus it seems like the really successful ones (Loreena, Enya, Orla, etc.) all have some instrument they play, like piano or harp. Except maybe Moya Brennan, Enya's sister, but I think the major part of her successful beginning was being in the band Clannad... she didn't need to play because her family band was so full of talented musicians.

This is very true. I would definitely have to work with accompanists of all kinds. But i wonder how different it is to be an 'Early music singer' being accompanied by a lute, or a 'Celtic music singer' being accompanied by a harp, dulcimer, etc? It doesnt seem that different to me, though i do know what you mean. It's my classical background making me see it that way.

You're right too, about Celtic music being a very small niche, even moreso than Baroque.

I guess the bottom line is that 'crossing over' just appeals to me. Why should i only do one thing with my voice when it is definitely capable of others too? I can see myself almost creating my own niche, of sorts... the kind of weirdo who would program Celtic ballads and Handel arias on the same recital.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I think a great example of a small, pure voice is Sissel... not sure how to spell her last name. Kejrkbo? She's not my favorite voice, but she's extremely musical, where as I feel as if the Celtic Women are all pretty voices without much else.

Originally Posted by Tessar

I'm not sure that would really appeal to the mass public, but then you have Sessel who's made a career out of singing pop ballads AND opera arias in the same concert, so who knows?

My fellow Norwegian, Sissel Kyrkjebø!

[Tessar]

I think so, plus people expect to hear a certain thing from you so they listen for it.

To quote my newer male teacher, "I've heard people sing like pigs at auditions, then come back two years later sounding like Metropolitan Opera super stars but they get disqualified in the exact same round because the judges only remember how badly they sang the first time."

[Voronwen]

That's hilarious But, i don't doubt it. This is why one is usually advised to not audition for anything significant until they're at a certain level of technique.

[Tessar]

I love her. She phrases so well, and her voice is just very crystalline and pure.

[Varnafindë]

She's very popular in Norway. Yes, a very pure voice.
When she first became famous, she was still only a teenager. One of her first albums was a Christmas Carols one (in 1986) - the most-selling record of Norway ever. It has sold more than 600 000 copies, in a country with just over 4 million people ...