01-16-2003, 11:20 AM | #181 | |||||||
The Original Corruptor
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If not, it seems that you are examining God without a complete definition (which can be useful at times), but the fact that it is the "holy character" or perhaps "moral" part of God's nature that you specify as the reason for God's lack of lying (i.e. absolute unlikelihood of a state of affairs in which God lies, not inability to lie) leads me to investigate this further. J.A. Mchugh, contributor to the Catholic Encyclopedia, quotes Aquinas who asserts it is omnipotence itself that is incompatible with sinning. Quote:
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It is, in my opinion, more correct to say that God can lie, but he will not. I have read time and again that God is unchanging in his nature. Would you agree that God's "holy character" is part of his nature? If you do, then it is actually impossible for God to lie, if he is immutable. If God is unchanging in his "holy character", then there will never be an opportunity for God to lie. Put another way, if God's "holy character" has always been the same, and always will be the same, then the necessary requirements for a state of affairs in which God can lie can never be met, thus God can never lie. On the other hand, if you don't think that God is immutable in this regard, then you have no good reason to think that God is "absolutely not likely to" (or "absolutely will not") lie, since this depends on the assumption that his "holy character" absolutely is not likely to, or absolutely will not (i.e. will never), change. Quote:
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Can I rape my hypothetical sister? Yes. Will I rape my hypothetical sister? No. I see no reason for you to use "can" in place of "will", in the sense of "am I likely to". Last edited by Andúril : 01-16-2003 at 04:14 PM. |
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01-16-2003, 11:30 AM | #182 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Andúril - a quick comment and a quick question -
comment - take your time finishing your post - I understand about being interrupted by 'real life' - I think these are important things to discuss, so take as long as you need to finish up and put up a note when you're done, please. question - would you please define the tilde symbol you use in your S-equation example? To me, the tilde means "approximately" (mathmatical use). I doubt if you mean it that way
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-16-2003, 11:36 AM | #183 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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No one can be good enough to earn their way into heaven; ALL have sinned, and have fallen short of the glory of God. Don't you think it grieves God to see His children reject him, and choose damnation instead? There could nothing more heart-wrenching than that. And about the black-hearted thing: no one who was truly evil would truly choose the way of God; it's more than repeating a prayer, it's your heart attitude that matters. But God will accept ANYONE who is willing to receive his gift of eternal life. It is there; all people have to do is accept it. Unfortunately, many of them don't, which is a very sad thing indeed. God would not have ANY perish. But, to use Lewis example, he couldn't give people free will and then force them to choose him, could he?
Lucifer did not question God; pride was his downfall. He conspired in his heart against his heart, planning to rise above God, and overthrow him. Actually, circumcision is still practiced today, and not just by Jews; it has to be with something concerning health, I believe. Concerning the next paragraph, let me restate: God couldn't give people free will, and then take it away from them. If God were to be always intervening, that would basically be taking away Free Will. And now, I gotta run quick a get to work: see you all later!
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
01-16-2003, 12:11 PM | #184 | |||||
The Buddy Rabbit
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"Lucifer questioned God’s laws. Why couldn’t the angels all decide for themselves what was love? Why should there be "laws" in the Universe? Lucifer wondered...he questioned. Lucifer became proud of his beauty. He became proud of his own ideas and opinions. Lucifer wanted to be "like the Most High" [God]! Lucifer claimed that he had new ideas which would bring a new type of liberty and freedom to the angels and to the Universe. All heaven was upset. Was this true? Lucifer began to say that not only was there a better way, but that God was unfair. Finally Lucifer accused God of being a tyrant (wicked, selfish leader)! Many angels listened to Lucifer and also began to question God." Quote:
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01-16-2003, 01:25 PM | #185 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Are you referring to Andúril's post, BTW? If so, which part? If not, what are you referring to (if you don't mind elaborating) - I always enjoy hearing from you, you have a great way with words and a good head on your shoulders! (and you're funny, too!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-16-2003, 02:24 PM | #186 | |||||||
The Original Corruptor
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Appendix I will use this area to give brief descriptions of the argumentative jargon, just in case you're feeling a tad unsure.
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http://gncurtis.home.texas.net/equivoqu.html http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/equiv.htm http://www.drury.edu/ess/values/Logic1.html http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQ...uivocation.htm
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http://www.deepscience.com/logic.html http://www.you-god-loves.org/proofforGod.htm http://www.gospelcom.net/ivpress/groothuis/logic.htm http://www.thebiblepage.org/biblesay...creation.shtml Quote:
Therefore: S = S S = not not S not S = not S Last edited by Andúril : 01-16-2003 at 04:21 PM. |
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01-16-2003, 04:28 PM | #187 |
The Original Corruptor
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RÃ*an, it is complete.
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01-16-2003, 04:47 PM | #188 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Andúril - Roger that, good buddy! I'll get to it as soon as I can - I'm a bit behind in the laundry, tho!
Anyone else care to comment whilst I'm sorting whites and colors?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-16-2003, 04:50 PM | #189 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*reads Coney's last couple of posts*
*sigh* *hands Coney a new bottle of SuperGlue for his clogs* *sends Coney an affectionate, sisterly kiss from over the pond*
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-16-2003, 04:52 PM | #190 | |
The Original Corruptor
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And to think that we haven't even touched on atheism yet! |
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01-16-2003, 04:58 PM | #191 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Your post is a few pages further back, Eärniel, but I haven't forgotten it yet - it's in the queue
Could you please send me a few industrial-strength Belgian chocolate bars to give me some more energy? My poor little fingertips are worn down to nubbins from typing so much *sends Eärniel some clogs, glue, and an affectionate kiss, too, but in a slightly more easterly direction than Coney's* *hey, that first part rhymed!* *if you guys don't want the kisses, mark them 'return to sender' and I'm sure my husband will take them I save all the best ones for him, though, and he doesn't mind if I give a few friendly ones away*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-16-2003, 05:00 PM | #192 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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BTW, it's been so long, I forget - did we have a disagreement on that subject??
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-16-2003, 05:04 PM | #193 |
The Buddy Rabbit
Join Date: Oct 2002
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To Rian
*Mwa! x *
*super-glues clogs on* *wishes he'd trimmed his toe nails first* *pops chocolate in the post* Rian 'tis time ya got your hubby on the laundry duties (j/k) |
01-16-2003, 05:28 PM | #194 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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God can tell lies, but he is perfect and cannot sin, so it's not in his nature to tell lies, so he can't tell lies, but he can do everything, so he can tell lies, but....(brain explodes) God created everything and has the ability to do anything. This would mean he could do things that are logically impossible (like lie when he doesn't lie ), so the God that can do "everything" can not exist, because he can not tell lies, because he is perfect, and can not sin. ( brain explodes) God knows everything, so he can't learn anything, because he already knows it all, but since God can do anything, he can learn, even though he can't learn, because he knows everything! So a God who knows everything can't do everything...(brain explodes) After a cup of coffee, I came to the conclusion that an Omnipotant God is impossible. Thank you very much!
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! |
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01-16-2003, 05:30 PM | #195 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Lizra - do you have 3 separate brains, or does your one brain re-assemble after exploding?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-16-2003, 08:23 PM | #196 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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OK, atheists, I have a request for you.
Stop your whirring brains from their whirring for a moment, and put aside your atheistic predeterminations. Pause for a moment, and relax. Then, think about it: what if there is a God? What if there is an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient Being without beginning or end; a Being which created the heavens and the earth, and everything in or on them, including Man. Take a moment to ponder the incredible nature of such a Being. Imagine how powerful, how great, how vast such a Being would be. Now, can you honestly say that you know beyond the shadow of a doubt that there would be nothing about such a Being, which you, as his tiny creation, a speck upon the Earth, might be unable to understand? That there is no way there might be different rules of logic? which would apply to such a Being? Or even that your own understanding of logic might not completely accurate and infallible?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
01-16-2003, 08:26 PM | #197 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Allow me to introduce an extremely radical concept, not pertaining to this disccusion directly, but in a manner:
Think on that for a while.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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01-16-2003, 08:31 PM | #198 |
The Elven Queen Of All Pyros
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hokey pokey
aha! i new it
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Would you judge my future based on what i did in the past? Procrastinators Unite!!!.....tomorrrow.... Kids in backseats cause accidents...accidents in backseats cause kids As long as there are tests..there will be prayers in school |
01-16-2003, 08:33 PM | #199 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Hey, Gwaimir, I have a question for you - are you a Christian? I just need to get an "official" answer for reasons of my own (MWAHAHA - uh, never mind - I'm in a rather silly mood today) I would be pretty surprised if your answer was anything but 'yes', but I would like to hear an official statement from you (don't worry, this isn't a trick).
ps - good question, Gwaimir; athiests?? (except I would reword "different rules of logic" to "superior reasoning processes", or something like that). But I like your last sentence, too - good point.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-16-2003, 08:33 PM | #200 |
The Elven Queen Of All Pyros
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Location: Im like a little bug stuck in the lamp...never going anywhere
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grr
******knew*****
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Would you judge my future based on what i did in the past? Procrastinators Unite!!!.....tomorrrow.... Kids in backseats cause accidents...accidents in backseats cause kids As long as there are tests..there will be prayers in school |
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