04-06-2007, 10:09 AM | #181 | ||
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
|
Quote:
Quote:
If you are aware that other people believe in different "truths" than you do and if you for just a second can step from your own beliefs and listen to the other people's arguments and identify how they think, you will be better at making the call whether you should speak or keep silent. And if you do speak, you will also be better at avoiding some of the abuse (By "you" I mean people in general, not specifically you Lief ) If you are interested, this is how I see things - We all have our own set of axioms - "truths" - on which we base our views and our sense of right and wrong. Since you Lief are Christian, many of your axioms come from the bible. As a consequence many non-Christians won't share your views. If we peel away all the arguments behind a certain political view, what is left are our axioms. Few arguments could make an individual reject those axioms. For instance, wouldn't it be very, very hard for me to make you reject your religion simply by stating some arguments? Important to note is also that arguments don't necessarily have the same meaning or "power" for people with different axioms. Our arguments will therefore rarely convince another person that they are wrong while you are right. Since we only rarely can make people change their political views by using arguments and since we practically never can make them change their axioms, we resort to what we can do; pointing out the logical holes in their arguments. In my experience this is a very widespread form of debating on messageboards like this one. I think we all believe in different truths, and your truth is just as real and true for you as is my truth for me. Everyone has their own "glasses" with which they observe the world. People forget this and think the world they see is the real and right one. So sometimes people fail to take in or respect the views of others. Then it might be better if they keep their mouths shut.
__________________
An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ Last edited by Jonathan : 04-06-2007 at 10:54 AM. |
||
04-06-2007, 01:26 PM | #182 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I put "truth" on a higher pedestal of honor than I think many liberals do, because they often use the word as meaning basically "human beliefs." If you say that everyone has their own beliefs through which they see the world, their own worldviews, and those worldviews are their "glasses," then I agree . This is just me being nit-picky on semantics . Quote:
Quote:
I agree with you that if people fail to "take it in," what the other person is saying, if by that you mean "understand it," then they should absolutely keep their mouths shut. Though I add in the word "absolutely," which you didn't include, because I take quite a hard line on this. If I don't understand what I'm hearing, I should not cast judgment on it. Also, if I fail to understand the value of the people I am talking to, and so fail to respect them, then that too is probably a good time for me to keep my mouth shut.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|||||
04-06-2007, 02:04 PM | #183 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Confusion Lane, on the back of a dragon, or on horseback.
Posts: 186
|
Quote:
__________________
Do not follow where the path may lead, but goes instead where there is no path and leave a trail. -Emerson Edgar Alan Poe and Oscar Wilde rock. They are actually better than rocks. Beautiful Soup and A Tomato Ate My Sister are the most educational and intellectual songs ever created, challenging the scholarly power of the great philosophers. On TB's sig, Don't worry about the world ending today, tomorrow, or next week, just worry about it ending now. |
|
04-06-2007, 02:06 PM | #184 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
04-06-2007, 02:08 PM | #185 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Confusion Lane, on the back of a dragon, or on horseback.
Posts: 186
|
Quote:
__________________
Do not follow where the path may lead, but goes instead where there is no path and leave a trail. -Emerson Edgar Alan Poe and Oscar Wilde rock. They are actually better than rocks. Beautiful Soup and A Tomato Ate My Sister are the most educational and intellectual songs ever created, challenging the scholarly power of the great philosophers. On TB's sig, Don't worry about the world ending today, tomorrow, or next week, just worry about it ending now. Last edited by elven dragonrider : 04-06-2007 at 02:10 PM. |
|
04-06-2007, 02:16 PM | #186 | |
Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
Posts: 2,476
|
Quote:
__________________
And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
|
04-06-2007, 02:19 PM | #187 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
When you say... Quote:
There is no lesson, or need for the wickedness, when the strength of the good in a person is predetermined in advance.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
||
04-06-2007, 02:28 PM | #188 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
A person's eventual goodness may be predetermined, but it isn't all there in the start. God predetermined that it develop and increase in a certain way, to bring us to the kind of maturity and fullness he wants us to reach in the way he wants us to reach it.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|
04-06-2007, 02:32 PM | #189 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
And there no greater example of such situations than those involving theology.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
04-06-2007, 02:37 PM | #190 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
That makes sense, though one obvious question would be why some good people are made to go through such extreme lessons, while others hardly go through any at all. Is the one who has gone through more lessons more good?
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
04-06-2007, 02:41 PM | #191 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Confusion Lane, on the back of a dragon, or on horseback.
Posts: 186
|
Quote:
__________________
Do not follow where the path may lead, but goes instead where there is no path and leave a trail. -Emerson Edgar Alan Poe and Oscar Wilde rock. They are actually better than rocks. Beautiful Soup and A Tomato Ate My Sister are the most educational and intellectual songs ever created, challenging the scholarly power of the great philosophers. On TB's sig, Don't worry about the world ending today, tomorrow, or next week, just worry about it ending now. |
|
04-06-2007, 02:42 PM | #192 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
But I do think that the meaning and appreciation of life you have is because of your experience and is in spite of your worldview rather than because of it, for the logical conclusion of your worldview is that everything is meaningless. I do believe that one mature in Christ will have a far greater insight into the meaning of life than one can gain while having such a worldview as yours. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life." If he is the life and the truth, then one who is deepening his or her relationship with that life and truth, the only life and truth, is naturally going to find deeper meaning than one who rejects both.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|
04-06-2007, 02:46 PM | #193 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Confusion Lane, on the back of a dragon, or on horseback.
Posts: 186
|
Go Lief! Not only do you name yourself for someone I admire (I did a project on him), but you like Oscar Wilde!
__________________
Do not follow where the path may lead, but goes instead where there is no path and leave a trail. -Emerson Edgar Alan Poe and Oscar Wilde rock. They are actually better than rocks. Beautiful Soup and A Tomato Ate My Sister are the most educational and intellectual songs ever created, challenging the scholarly power of the great philosophers. On TB's sig, Don't worry about the world ending today, tomorrow, or next week, just worry about it ending now. |
04-06-2007, 02:58 PM | #194 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Is an architect better than a mathematician? Or a doctor than a physicist? Aren't they all necessary because of their differences, rather than in spite of them? I believe that God plans that highly different people each fulfill different predestined purposes, and receive correspondingly different lessons. Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||
04-06-2007, 03:28 PM | #195 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
I'll respond to the rest of your post in the abortion thread.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||
04-06-2007, 03:37 PM | #196 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|
04-06-2007, 03:38 PM | #197 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
||
04-06-2007, 03:39 PM | #198 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
It's one of my all-time favorite stories.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
04-06-2007, 05:07 PM | #199 | ||||
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
|
Lief, glad you and I agree on so many things
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think it's always a good thing if you try to understand different views and don't just think "I can't get how people can have these opinions!". Because often, you actually can if you think a little. For instance, I'm pro-abortion but I can see perfectly well why other people aren't. But Lief, you are correct that there are views that one simply cannot respect. Quote:
__________________
An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ |
||||
04-06-2007, 06:28 PM | #200 | |
Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
Posts: 2,476
|
Quote:
As for medieval science, I suggest you have a look at an article like this one to see the many kinds of science which were studied in the period
__________________
And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Science | ayarella | General Messages | 804 | 04-13-2012 09:05 PM |
muslims PART 2 | Spock | General Messages | 805 | 02-03-2011 03:16 AM |
Theological Opinions | Nurvingiel | General Messages | 992 | 02-10-2006 04:15 PM |
REAL debate thread for RELIGION | Ruinel | General Messages | 1439 | 04-01-2005 02:47 PM |
Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread | RĂan | General Messages | 2289 | 01-08-2004 02:31 AM |