The Anti-theist Thread

[Twilight]

I don't think that science is ever going to prove absolutaly for sure between evolutionism and creationism. Obviously complete proof is incomplete in both directions. That is where faith comes in again. A faith in something that we can't see, and can't prove with any tangible things. I can't prove it, but I can feel it to where I know that it is true without a doubt in my mind that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he died for our sins. You can ask me how I feel it beyond a reasonable doubt. I can see the way in which Christianity has brought total change to people, myself included. Take the disciples for example. They turned from wimps to people willing to give their lives for their beliefs. There are just so many internal things, like prayers are answered in miraculous ways. I am not talking about vague things, but specific prayers answered for. Ask any practising Christian and they will tell you how effective prayer is. A large part of Christianity is the relationship between us and God. It woudn't be relationship if it was just a one way thing. God responds in ways that we can feel. It is a bit hard to describe to somebody that hasn't felt it, and it is differant in each person. I think I am starting to ramble, so I will just leave it at this. Myself or others can provide more as neccesary

[emplynx]

The Complexity of Life—Hemoglobin
Hemoglobin
The protein, hemoglobin, is an essential component of humans and other vertebrates. Contained in red blood cells, hemoglobin serves as the oxygen-carrier in blood. Each human has over 60 octillion (60,000,000,000,000,000,000) hemoglobin molecules. Each hemoglobin molecule is made up of two twisted chains of 574 amino acids each linked together in a specific order. There are thousands of different types of amino acids, however, only 20 of these types of amino acids are used in living organisms. This means that only these 20 are used in making hemoglobin and each amino acid must be linked up in the right order.

Trains and Things that Link Together
If we were to take two railroad trains of 574 cars each, with 20 different colors of cars, we would have a picture of hemoglobin. In order to link the cars of the train in the proper order, we have to choose the correct color car for each position. Since there are 20 different colors of cars, this means for the first position there are 20 different choices. To properly link the first two cars, we must select from 20 different color choices for each of the two cars. 20 possible colors for the first car and 20 possible colors for the second car—20 times 20, or 400 possible color combinations just to properly link the first two cars. If we were to link up the first three cars we would have 8,000 different combinations, 20 choices for each of the three cars (20 times 20 times 20). This can also be written as 203 (20 multiplied by 20 for 3 times).



Hemoglobin has 574 'cars' or 20 raised to the 574th power (20574 possible combinations). How long would it take to assemble a train, with the colored cars in the correct order, with this many possible combinations? If you were able to do one combination every second of your life, you would run out of time. If you were able to try one combination for every second of the estimated age of the universe (15 billion years or about 1018 seconds), you would still run out of time. There is not enough time in the estimated age of the universe to try even a small fraction of the possible combinations. It would take over a quadrillion (1,000,000,000,000,000) years of trying a combination every second and still, there would not be enough time to try all the possible combinations. How could this have happened in less than 4 billion years without the help of an intelligent designer?

[Rána Eressëa]

Fine. Aliens created us. Happy?

Once again, why are you so determined to know everything? You cannot explain everything. You say all this is impossible - the belief of God alone is no more preposterous than of what we speak. Especially since he was just "always there". I'd like an explaination of that. Where'd he come from? Answer that, and you have my belief.

[jerseydevil]

Why can't the universerse have no true beginning or end??? You can NOT name the smallest number or the largest number - nor can you come up with the smallest decimal number between 0 and 1. All those things have no beginning or end.

Science supports evolution far more than it supports creationism. Just because a book says it - doesn't make it true. I think I will declare that the Silmarillion is my Bible again and worship Illúvatar. The Silmarillion is just as believable as the Bible.

[jerseydevil]

The difference between theists and non-theists. Non-theists look for the facts (changeable) and theists ask you to believe without facts (nonchangeable).

[Rána Eressëa]

Here, here.

[BeardofPants]

[i]Impossible. Aristotle said that everything has to come from an unmoved mover. Infinite Regression is 100% impossible. It had to start somewhere with someone. [/B]

And aristotle hasn't been known to be wrong? Don't forget how old his philosophy is.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Wayfarer

The burden of proof still rests witht he claimant. Show me.

Once more I wonder at these leaps of, well, faith, that you keep making. I believe there is a God who created the universe, and that he made it to work in a certain way, and that through science we can find out how that is and predict how it will work in the future. In order to have face in science, you must have faith in a predictable universe.

Anytime. I'll meet you in the Grand Canyon and you explain how it all happened in 6000 years. There is no burden of proof on a theory since it doesn't claim, as the bible does, that is is the absolute and final truth. That is the difference. I don't accept that thought process. Working backward from any scientific concept to say "well, that's god" is very convenient but meaningless. Burden of proof? prove the red sea parted. Prove that jesus turned water into wine. Eyewitnesses? They were about human frailty to make up a tale? Why do you leap from everyboby is an atheist to the world's on my side so I'm right?

How did god create the universe from the outside and them insert his only begotten son at just the right time?

Wayfarer
You also make a false assumption that creationism can and has been disproved. I submit once more that if it has in fact been disproved, then you should be able to convince me. It is not the facts which disagree with christianity, merely conjecture and hypothesis, and the sensibilities of many institutions.

The name creationism is a dead give away; it implies that it is a belief system (-ism). Evolution, as referred to by scientists is properly called the theory of evolution. If i suggested that creation was just a theory it would cast doubt the source of creationism's premise; the bible. So, if your willing to admit that the word of the bible is only one of many possibilities, then the "theory of creation" could be a candidate as a scientific discipline.

Wayfarer
Think of it this way: The christian believes that the Bible is completely true, but that all other religions have fragments of truth in them as well

Think of it this way. Atheists think that some fragments of the bible are true, but there are many better sources of knowledge about physics, geology, archeology, chemistry, astronomy, cosmology, hydrology, and oceanography.

Wayfarer
However, I notice that no matter how different these people may all be, they all agree with each other far more than they do with you. This is not a valid arguement, and so I'll leave it there, but i find it interesting.

It's fine with me not to be on the side with the terrorists, suicide bombers, genocidal maniacs who believe in only their one god. At least in this century i can doubt the existance of god without being drawn and quartered or burned at the stake.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Why can't the universerse have no true beginning or end??? You can NOT name the smallest number or the largest number - nor can you come up with the smallest decimal number between 0 and 1. All those things have no beginning or end.

Science supports evolution far more than it supports creationism. Just because a book says it - doesn't make it true. I think I will declare that the Silmarillion is my Bible again and worship Illúvatar. The Silmarillion is just as believable as the Bible.

Go Jersey Devil!

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Why can't the universerse have no true beginning or end??? You can NOT name the smallest number or the largest number - nor can you come up with the smallest decimal number between 0 and 1. All those things have no beginning or end.

Science supports evolution far more than it supports creationism. Just because a book says it - doesn't make it true. I think I will declare that the Silmarillion is my Bible again and worship Illúvatar. The Silmarillion is just as believable as the Bible.

Illúvatar lives!

[jerseydevil]

Hey - after I read people quoting me - I realised I had misspealt Ilúvatars's name wrong - he only has one "l". I didn't want to get flamed for misspelling our god's name wrong.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Hey - after I read people quoting me - I realised I had misspealt Ilúvatars's name wrong - he only has one "l". I didn't want to get flamed for misspelling our god's name wrong.

Will we have to kneel? I have a bone spur under my right kneecap that feels like a nail.

Now that i think about it, i don't remember anyone praying to Ilúvatar in JRRT work. Any experts?

umm, you misspelled misspelled



Ilúvatar lives!

[jerseydevil]

So I'm not doing too good on spelling today. I meant misspelt (which is interchangeable with misspelled).

But no - I don't think you have to kneel and pray. But I did hear Ilúvatar wants you to take all your first born children to a mountain top and declare your faith in him by sacrificing your child. If you have an only child - you get double points.

Sorry if anyone finds this offensive - but just read the bible for additional examples.

[Ñólendil]

Of course people will find that offensive.

Please, everyone, ignore the above post. Please don't flame.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

But no - I don't think you have to kneel and pray. But I did hear Ilúvatar wants you to take all your first born children to a mountain top and declare your faith in him by sacrificing your child. If you have an only child - you get double points.

Sorry if anyone finds this offensive - but just read the bible for additional examples.

No problem so far, my only child is adopted

Q: How many anti-theists posting here ever believed in god?

Also, I don't want to see annymore references to Evolutionists; there is no church of evolution as far as i know. There are people who think the theory of evolution is a reasonable concept to attempt to explain the origin and diversity of life. Sorry to be nit picky but is's just annoying.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Cirdan


No problem so far, my only child is adopted

Q: How many anti-theists posting here ever believed in god?

Also, I don't want to see annymore references to Evolutionists; there is no church of evolution as far as i know. There are people who think the theory of evolution is a reasonable concept to attempt to explain the origin and diversity of life. Sorry to be nit picky but is's just annoying.

I hear you, Cirdan. It annoys me too. But then, there are a lot of misconceptions on this thread that annoy me. In the grand scheme of things, "lizard to a dog" annoys me more than "evolutionist" vs evolutionary (evolutionarily popular? anyone? I STILL dislike the use of that in terms of ANYTHING. It's a made up word, used by someone with made up theories) Creationism. Bleh.

[jerseydevil]

I didn't flame - I was just stating something that is in the bible. The point thing was just a side item.

I was brought up believing in god - but I don't know if I ever truly believed. It was more the way I was raised. Then I started questioning things - and nothing made sense.

[jerseydevil]

Oh, and I went to Catholic school all my life - so I learned all about the bible. They all taught evolution though.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


I hear you, Cirdan. It annoys me too. But then, there are a lot of misconceptions on this thread that annoy me. In the grand scheme of things, "lizard to a dog" annoys me more than "evolutionist" vs evolutionary (evolutionarily popular? anyone? I STILL dislike the use of that in terms of ANYTHING. It's a made up word, used by someone with made up theories) Creationism. Bleh.

my lizarddog will be disapointed so i won't tell her.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Cirdan


my lizarddog will be disapointed so i won't tell her.

That's okay. I haven't told my horned dog, either!

Just in case Wayfarer is reading this, I've given up trying to spoon feed him some facts. Let him believe in his myths, and I'll go back to my nice warm comfortable facts.