05-04-2003, 05:05 AM | #181 | |
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I haven't been following this thread much, so perhaps i'm repeting something already said. I agree that Mandos would never release Feanor till the end of time; but he will release him at the end of all things.
I think that almost all of the prophecy of Mandos has to be considered rejected by Tolkien. What he never rejected AFAIK is the vague idea that there would be a new life also for elves after Arda had dissapeared. In that life all elves -those who never had died, those who had been released by Mandos and those who never had been released by Mandos- would live again, but surely in a new way because their hroa couldn't be the same after Arda had passed. Quote:
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05-04-2003, 05:25 AM | #182 | ||
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I was going to write that I was going to quote one of MM's articles, but that it was down. When I clicked the link, it wasn't. So here it is: A funny thing happened on the way to the canon Quote:
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 05-04-2003 at 05:30 AM. |
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05-04-2003, 01:35 PM | #183 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Interesting quote, Falagar. I would really hope that Feanor would have one final chance to repent of the evil that he caused and the good he could have done. Surely, he and Mandos had some interesting talks through the ages.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
05-04-2003, 05:09 PM | #184 | |||
The Tall
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Quote:
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For a more detailed discussion about the Second Prophecy of Mandos look here: Túrin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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05-04-2003, 05:16 PM | #185 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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As I have said, the Bible says that "God loves the sinner and hates the sin." Sin is by definition evil, from God's point of view. Q.E.D.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
05-04-2003, 05:22 PM | #186 | |
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I think there's lots of nice, well-informed people on this forum. There's also differing opinions, and it's fun and interesting to discuss them, as long as there's no flaming, as you say. I have no problem disagreeing with people, as long as it remains friendly. I also think there's just no "right" answer to some of these topics - sometimes Tolkien is vague about things, or even changes his mind about things (one of the best examples - Galadriel and Celeborn). I think informed conjecture is also fun and interesting to share, and of course, conjecture can't be "proven". We all need to be able to disagree considerately, and we usually can. Let's remember the main thing we all share - a love of Tolkien's works. [/"bliss ninny" mode ] ps - that quote that you shared reminds me of the bit in the Sil where it says that even tho Tulkas disagreed with letting Melkor go, he obeyed the decision - something like "for those who would uphold authority against rebellion cannot themselves rebel". IOW, you can't fight wrong with wrong.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-04-2003 at 05:25 PM. |
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05-04-2003, 05:30 PM | #187 | |
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Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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05-04-2003, 05:49 PM | #188 |
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Ooh-kay, how about Psalm 5, verses 4-6: "For thou art not a God that has pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity, Thou shall destroy those that speak leasing ( falsehood -R.V.), the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man."
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
05-04-2003, 06:02 PM | #189 | |
The Tall
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How about this then:
From Luke 6:27 Quote:
Is the christian belief is to hate the hater?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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05-04-2003, 06:05 PM | #190 |
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And as far as I know, God is also a forgiveful God, he forgives the sinner...
My knowledge on Christianity doesn't extend into such deep matters, as you may have noticed.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
05-04-2003, 06:24 PM | #191 |
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The Luke passage has to do with the Christian's conduct. God is not addressed in it, and he is expressly shown to hate people who do evil. Sin, in fact. Of course, God forgives the sinner. The repentent sinner. And, as I have said before, I am enjoined to good to those that hate me. As far as I know, Feanor does not hate me, or any other real person, and is not my enemy, or any other real person. He is a literary character, and Christians are free to hate him or love him, and his evil acts.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
05-04-2003, 06:27 PM | #192 |
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Christianity, as opposed to Judaism, is based on the "new covenant" of faith, not the "old covenant" of the law (verses supplied upon request ), to the best of my understanding (almost 30 years of being a Christian). So if you're talking about Christianity, I think the New Testament verses are more appropriate.
I think the main theme of the Old Testament was showing that God is righteous and holy, and rightly abhors any sinful behavior (just as we, made in His image, rightly abhor evil acts). The New T builds upon the Old T - if we don't know we're sinful (as shown in the Old T), which separates us from a holy God, then we don't realize we need salvation (as provided by Jesus in the New T), which reconciles us to God. And God provides forgiveness, if we ask for it and accept the way He has provided - some people don't want to ask... But this might be gettng too OT...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-04-2003, 06:38 PM | #193 |
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The New Testament's verses are indeed more appropriate to me, and indeed the Psalm does not address the individual, only God. I, as a Christian, am not allowed to hate the Nazis, say, but I am free to deplore their evil conduct, and to prevent it if I can. Again, the whole confusion is between a literary character and the real thing. I may also point out that the Psalm is more appropriate, since the First Age was before the birth of Christ.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
05-04-2003, 06:49 PM | #194 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
Have you had a chance to read the bits in Morgoth's Ring, Attalus, about the fall of man? Very interesting.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-04-2003, 07:03 PM | #195 | |
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
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05-04-2003, 07:08 PM | #196 |
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Yes, the quiet "First Voice" and the devious "Second Voice" are very interesting.
*wonders how long Attalus can hold out buying Morgoth's Ring, if he doesn't already have it *
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-04-2003, 07:09 PM | #197 | |
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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05-04-2003, 07:14 PM | #198 |
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Again, only as far as living beings are concerned. Then your attitude might cause you to commits acts contrary to charity, or, God forbid, violence. But, nowhere is it stated that one is forbidden to abhor or hate evil actions, or literary characters. This, I believe, would have quite the reverse effect. And, again, hating Feanor is not returning hate with hate, since he can only hate withing the confines of a story.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
05-04-2003, 07:17 PM | #199 | |
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Quote:
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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05-04-2003, 07:24 PM | #200 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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But they're enjoyable and interesting speculations, IMHO and at the very least, show some of this thoughts on things. And some are very well-developed.
Ta, all, I'm off!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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