How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas

[Butterbeer]

hokay ...

(actually i meant on the moot here Jammi... )

.................................................. .........

so is there then a consensus that the swords were nothing especially special? Merely that happy would they who wrought them have been to know their fate - to pin one into a leg and cause the WK to stumble?

or are there still those who think these are somehow cryptonite super swords that are effectively portable fires of veritable doom for the nazgul ??

(or is that actually just too preposterous to even entertain seriously? )

best, BB

bearing in mind Eowyn's sword wot did the deed was nothing special at all ... though she was a sexy blonde and that makes her a femme fatal to the WK ... should they have done a Herod think you? ... and tried to kill all blonde girls at birth?, or send wights, balrogs et al to "defend" ALL these also???

you'd almost think there was only one knife (long enough for swords for hobbit folk walking abroad south and east) (let alone sword) from the peroid knocking about now wouldn't you?

[Landroval]

Cardolan was an independent daughter-state of Arnor until III 1409.

I disagree:

Originally Posted by The north-kingdom and the dunedain

In the days of Argeleb son of Malvegil, since no descendants of Isildur remained in the other kingdoms, the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor. The claim was resisted by Rhudaur.

That happened before 1356, the year of Argeleb's death. If there is any quote about its independence after Argeleb, I am not aware of it

And even were Cardolan willing to share such a secret, they’d have to find the knowledgeable persons and bring that knowledge to the appropriate people in Arthedain

Again, I did not argue for sharing of technology, only of the existence of it.

the Witch-king and 4 others pursued the Ring-bearer to Weathertop, where they all held back except the Witch-king when the barrow-blade was unsheathed.

The other two nazguls stopped when they saw that Frodo was resisting them even when he is in 'wraithdom' - they probably started assuming other surprises, and sort of covered w-k's back, just as the other two nazgul were covering the higher ground; basic tactics, if you ask me. If there was fear about that dreadful sword, they had all the means to destroy it by distance and then approach Frodo - Frodo's sword is easily destroyed at the Ford, apparently just for the heck of it.

Even better then: may we presume that the Narrator is both well-informed and even-handed, and that if he says “no other blade” could “break the spell”, then it is in fact the only blade - or perhaps more precisely, the only kind of blade - that could “break the spell”, even if it is a non-magical blade?

The only blade to deal such a bitter wound - nothing states an invulnerability to other blades - their main presented strong point is fear, as we argued previously.

Although, it would be rather unusual in literature for a “non-magical blade” to break a spell... Of course, Aragorn made some comment about the knives being “wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor.” But perhaps he was merely speaking metaphorically?

I already agreed from the start these weapons are wound about with spells for the bane of evil, which is apparent in the behaviour of the orcs towards them.

Do you know many Elven grave robbers?
...
Secondly, there is no reference that the elves (NOT "High", or Calaquendi Elves) didn't fear the nazgul. There is evidence for the opposite:

These assumptions would be made too lightly about the strength and motivations of the w-k's enemies.

I don't think Sauron cared that much about his nazgul's well-being to intervene directly.

Yeah, the most powerful of his servants..

I wonder, Landroval, were you really unaware of the quote Alcuin has just posted?

I wonder, did you already forgot we debated that very quote here?

the sentence was stricken out immediately by the author

No, it wasn't stricken out immediately; here is the context, I am sure you will like it:

This survived into the first typescript, where it was afterwards replaced by the words in RK: The Nazgul came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which uttered only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horror

You do like the words "only his will", as they do appear in RotK, right?

I can tell for instance, that the nazgul appeared in Angmar 300 years after Gondor conquered Harad.

You do realise this is a false comparisons, do you? There is no connection between Gondor and the nazguls. My refference shows that the nazgul appear/dissappear with Sauron, not independently of him.

And is there any reference to LOYALTY of the King of Carn-Dum to Sauron?

Fine, call it subserviency of the nazgul to Sauron.

Little enthusiasm, yes: lagging behind, making mistakes, straying in daylight, not showing any initiative, looking for the Shire in the Vales, when the WK probably knew all along where it was, missing the ringbearer in Hobbiton, passing the ringbearer on the road, waiting till the Buckleberry ferry was afloat before appearing on the shore - that is another matter.

Seeing that they are the most suited for this mission, any shortcomings they have are not intentional.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

They were only able to be saved by Tom because Frodo was able to gain consciousness. I wonder why that was. Did he receive aid (from the Ring, or from someone else), was he just lucky, or had the wight maybe taken too many prisoners at one time?

I believe it was the Ring again. It wanted to be put on...

Anyway, what about those who probably could defeat wights? Well, it seems that people like Gandalf and Glorfindel didn’t need barrow blades to face the Nazgul. There is plenty of evidence for that. So, most likely, those who were able to face the wights wouldn’t have been interested in retrieving the blades, and those who did need the blades (being the Nazguls’ weaker enemies) were unable to face the wights. This helps explain why the swords had remained hidden for so long.

I think, Glorfy and Gandy didn't know about the blades. If they did, why not give some at least to those who fought at Fornost?
Why not give one to Earnur whoi was so keen on fighting the WK?

Originally Posted by BB

so is there then a consensus that the swords were nothing especially special? Merely that happy would they who wrought them have been to know their fate - to pin one into a leg and cause the WK to stumble?

No consensus is possible here.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

so is there then a consensus that the swords were nothing especially special? Merely that happy would they who wrought them have been to know their fate - to pin one into a leg and cause the WK to stumble?

Urg! I think the consensus is quite the opposite: they were something special.

But then, as my old physics teacher used to say (usually when the football team or the band was being summoned from studying the laws of motion of the theory of optics in his physics class to some practice for extracurricular activity),

All of you are special, but some of you are special-special.

Ed:Be certain that I am applying this bit of scientific observation to the blades alone. I know from my old physics teacher that I am special-special, and I am sure that everyone else on Entmoot is, too.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think, Glorfy and Gandy didn't know about the blades. If they did, why not give some at least to those who fought at Fornost?
Why not give one to Earnur whoi was so keen on fighting the WK?

but what we do know of the nazgul is that they create great fear into their surroundings, and that even in rivendale, there are few who are willing to face them. therefore, what's the use of giving them these extra special blades, when all that's going to happen is that a) they cower from fright, b) they run from fright or possibly c) die from fright.

[Butterbeer]

they were something special.

so...you think these knives are effectively Nazgul WMDs then???

why????


(other than a quote that is clearly written for dramatic effect and for the story at that momment)

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

so...you think these knives are effectively Nazgul WMDs then???

No, there were WIDs - Weapons of Individual Destruction.

[Butterbeer]

Touche'

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

No, there were WIDs - Weapons of Individual Destruction.

you mean like they worked just against the nazgul?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by jammi567

you mean like they worked just against the nazgul?

No, they worked one at a time.

[Butterbeer]

so... they would not work, say, against a troll or an orc?

Is this not ,then, problematical?



best, BB

*edit** ... cross post ...don't all swords work one at a time? Is that not a superfluous defence?

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

No, they worked one at a time.

even more confused now.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think, Glorfy and Gandy didn't know about the blades. If they did, why not give some at least to those who fought at Fornost?
Why not give one to Earnur whoi was so keen on fighting the WK?

I agree that they seem to be unfamiliar with the swords. However, even if they did know of them, are you sure they would have raided the barrows to retrieve them for their less powerful allies? I don’t think so, personally.

First off, in Tolkien’s world, the most powerful opponents seem to very often meet face to face. Remember that both Gandalf and Glorfindel come very close to fighting hand to hand with the Witch King.

Second, the barrow blades weren’t exactly the key to defeating Angmar or Mordor. Useful tools, yes, but not of too much importance compared with other things. Sure, Angmar probably would have immediately fallen if the Witch King had been destroyed, but getting a good “shot at him” must have been very difficult. I would guess that this is much of the reason why knowledge of the swords seemed to have been lost to all but the Nazgul themselves and Bombadil. The only times that we know of when they had an impact was when they appeared unexpectedly (for the Witch King).

Third, it would just seem kind of weird to have someone extremely powerful digging into a tomb and facing the undead to arm much weaker people to face an opponent that this powerful person could face himself without such a weapon.

Also, as jammi pointed out, someone who needs the blade to fight a Nazgul, may be too afraid to use it.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by jammi567

even more confused now.

One Nazgûl at a time.

[jammi567]

ohh, right.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

so... they would not work, say, against a troll or an orc?

Pippin called his sword "Troll's Bane" in "The Scouring of the Shire", remember? (There is a 'Mooter with that monicker.)

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

don't all swords work one at a time?

Exactly

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Pippin called his sword "Troll Bane" in "The Scouring of the Shire", remember?

only because he just happened to stab one in the battle outside the black gates. he didn't kill it or anything, just gave it a comparativly small wound.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by jammi567

only because he just happened to stab one in the battle outside the black gates. he didn't kill it or anything, just gave it a comparativly small wound.

The troll wasn't a Ringwraith, was it? If the short sword in the barrow that Frodo picked up and used to hew the hand of the wraith was a fifth blade of the same sort, it didn't kill that wraith, either.

And come to think of it, the Witch-king wasn't killed by the barrow-blade: it apparently made him vulnerable to Eowyn's blade.

So maybe it just made the troll vulnerable to something else.

Wouldn't this part of the discussion be done greater justice in a thread for the purpose of discussing the barrow-blades? There must be an old one lying about here someplace...

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

so... they would not work, say, against a troll or an orc?

Is this not ,then, problematical?

I don’t think it is problematic when you consider that these probably weren’t anyone’s primary sword (other than the Hobbits). They were little more than knives for the men of Arnor. The barrow blades weren’t meant to be used against Trolls or Orcs in battle, the soldiers probably had regular long swords for that. Most likely, the barrow blades were meant entirely for the Witch King.

Of course, Pippin’s blade did prove useful against a Troll and the Hobbits did manage to get a few Orcs with them also.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

And come to think of it, the Witch-king wasn't killed by the barrow-blade: it apparently made him vulnerable to Eowyn's blade.

So maybe it just made the troll vulnerable to something else.

Maybe that was the special power of the swords then. to simply make them vulnable to ordanary wepons, not to outright kill a nazgul.