01-21-2007, 10:58 PM | #181 |
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Whether or not the gay leopard decies to pretend to be a giraffe for the rest of his life, and lie to both himself and all the other so-called "well-meaning" giraffes about his change of heart in eating urges, does nothing to the crux of this debate - the fight for gays to be granted the right to legal marriage, when straights have these rights and gays do not in a society that brags hypocritically about "equality."
Back to the topic at hand, babe. It is wrong to deny gays the right to get married under the laws and edicts of the land, because a loving couple who wants to commit to one another and start a family should not be discriminated against by their wrongly-labelled "tolerant" government, merely because they deviate from the biological norm. It is greivous discrimination to do so, and your argument that "people can change their homosexual status because I have evidence and I know this for a fact, because I know people who have" does absolutely nothing. I know only too painfully well the lengths, the insidious psychological mind-game lengths that christian-based or christian-funded organisations and churches will go to to mind-warp the poor, lost "demon-possessed" little lost leopards who need only to be brought to the Light, and the Truth, and the Way of the giraffe, to discover Heaven which will be awarded to the leopards if they change, rather than the Hell they would surely otherwise be sent to; they may be granted Eternal Salvation (from what?? Being a leopard?? ) and granted access to Heaven if they only deny their Sinful Nature and decide, after all this mental, spiritual and psychological manipulation to be something they are not. This is unbelieveably wicked. This is so wrong. This is one good example of how come iI have such a problem with the Church and her unbearable hypocrisy. Especially the American Fundamentalist faction, of which Bushi is a member, as are most of the Republicans nowadays, sadly.
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01-22-2007, 12:32 AM | #182 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Think love, not sex.
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01-22-2007, 12:35 AM | #183 | |
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01-22-2007, 01:08 AM | #184 | |
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Lotesse, I don't have anything really to add to my response to your points that I didn't already say to Gaffer in post 138. So I'll just say I respect your views, though I disagree with them.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-22-2007 at 01:11 AM. |
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01-22-2007, 01:56 AM | #185 | |||
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I'd like to say in a very aggressive and completely non-nurturing manner that this is total bollocks. Also that I really respect Lief. That statement though, which has no basis in anything even resembling fact, I do not respect. I'm going to either bump an old thread about gender or start a new one to talk about this... I hope you will all join me for a respectful, aggressive, and nurturing discussion. My houseplants would like to re-assert that I'm not very nurturing. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
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01-22-2007, 02:58 AM | #186 | ||||
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My citation is the political science profession. I've been taught in my college Political Science class that this is accepted throughout the political science profession, and female politicians know it's true as well. That's why there's a dual problem among many female politicians. While many are nurturing and not very aggressive, many others, who are well acquainted with the statistics about women's generally being not very aggressive, tend to attempt to prove that it is not true as regards them. Consequently they become overly aggressive and cause lots of problems because they want to prove that they can be as aggressive or strong a leader as any man. So that's a reverse kind of problem that has also been noted in the political science profession about women in politics. They tend to be either overly aggressive or overly nurturing, without all that much between the two extremes. That's what's taught in the political science branch, learned through their statistical studies. One citation I have for it would be Professor Stew Frame. He's the college professor from whom I first heard this. It's worth mentioning that he is personally in favor of women being in politics. He doesn't attempt to deny this statistical data, though. Another citation is International Politics on the World Stage, eleventh edition, by John T. Rourke, page 67. He doesn't attempt to say whether the observed differences are based on biological differences between men and women or socialization (I have different sources that provide evidence that biology is a key difference between men and women's personalitie), but he definitely makes the point from a number of studies that women tend to be more nurturing and less aggressive than men. My third citation is Essentials of American Government by Tim Chervenak, pages 346 and 348. Here's a quote from that book: Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-22-2007 at 02:46 PM. |
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01-22-2007, 01:55 PM | #187 | |
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You're not just making too much out of sex. You are painting men and women into a stereotype of commonality by gender that simply doesn't exist. I've met many men and women over the years that don't fall even remotely into any categories of what we expect their gender to be. Sterotypes exist because most people tend to be similar when viewed broadly. But, when seen as individuals, it can be amazing how much variety you find and how some people simply don't fit the stereotype in any way, shape or form. I think that the more contact you have with gay couples over the years, the less "differences" you will see between them and heterosexual couples. But, the first step is allowing yourself to consider that those differences may not exist in the way you believe they do. You have nothing to lose.
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01-22-2007, 03:00 PM | #188 | ||
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Thanks for the response, brownjenkins.
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The first is that gender differences are biologically ingrained. They aren't going to change. People will always be the way they are genetically encoded to be. Cultural differences can change from person to person, though. People who come to America might adopt a more American culture, or they have the choice of maintaining their values and perhaps mingling and getting along fine anyway. They might even marry and maintain cultural differences with their partners. But that is not biological, so people can work through it or change, if they want to. Biology won't change, though. The second reason why I disagree with you is that men and women do show very strong differences. I've seen these differences ALL OVER the place. There's only one notable exception in my mind right now, one woman I know who doesn't seem to fit any of the expected gender differences. But there are certain factors that could explain that, biologically, without messing with my claim. According to the Genetics Organization, major and highly similar differences between men and women have been observed across the vast majority of civilizations and cultures in our world. Men have had major differences from women in their roles in society. If men and women were mentally pretty much the same, you would see a roughly equivalent number of societies in the world that are dominated by women, to those in which men have been the leaders, military and aggressive gender. History shows no such sameness. This is a strong evidence that differences between men and women aren't cultural, but are rather biological. Here's an interesting excerpt about male and female brains differences from a book written by licensed psychotherapist Thayer White MA MFT: http://www.helpself.com/brain.htm Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-22-2007 at 03:01 PM. |
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01-22-2007, 03:13 PM | #189 | |||||
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01-22-2007, 03:49 PM | #190 |
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If you asked me, about what you say Jon - that gayness can't be measured - would seem to point to a conclusion that gayness really is just people thinking this way or that about their sexuality. In short, not REALLY knowing themselves. Or just "playing around".
I don't know if you guys ever read Dr. Ruth (the sex doctor), but she one time wrote in a column that she didn't believe anyone was REALLY bisexual, she said that they were either trying to figure it out, or trying to have the best of both worlds.
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01-22-2007, 03:54 PM | #191 | |||||
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Hmm. Interesting post, Jonathan.
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I still think that Sparta's universal male homosexuality in the military, and the Exodus Organization's discovering that unusual family structures (like having a single parent) are behind virtually all the homosexual experiences that come to them indicate a central environmental role. But it's true that these examples don't prove that biology doesn't dominate in the cases of some people. Quote:
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I sincerely hope that if I ask you where a nearby hospital is, you won't say, "that depends on your own ideas and beliefs." Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-22-2007 at 03:55 PM. |
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01-22-2007, 05:04 PM | #192 | ||||
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Of course we have to agree on some things (like what constitutes the colour "yellow"), otherwise we wouldn't be able to communciate at all But remember that whenever we discribe something in words, we diminish it - we create a model of it. We all have our own model of reality in our heads. Often the model quite agrees with other people's models ("yellow" is the same thing for both of us). Sometimes our models are somewhat different (the concept "god" means one thing for you and another thing for me). And sometimes our models conflict with one another (your religion and whatnot contribute to your stance against gay marriage whereas my liberal worldview makes me favour it). The point I'm trying to make is this: When our conceptions of reality don't agree, we can't always use arguments that sounds perfectly reasonable in our own worldview to convince the other part that they are wrong. Those arguments might not just fit into their model of reality. Like for me, "because the Bible says so" wouldn't be a convincing argument So let's not forget we all conceive the world differently - we have all created our own little model of reality. If we remember this, chances are bigger we can all just get along, respect the beliefs of others and exchange ideas in a friendly way without thinking "oh that guy's an idiot" or "Christians drive me mad"
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01-22-2007, 05:25 PM | #193 |
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What really bugs me in this whole general topic is the group of people who seem to think valid changes only go one way - it's somehow a "valid" change to go from straight to gay, but somehow NOT valid to go from gay to straight. The people with these viewpoints are the ones that usually shout about tolerance and respecting individuals' decisions, but it seems they're only talking about respecting decisions that they like.
They talk about how you can't change how you're made, and then support a man getting surgery to change into a woman, and support a straight person going gay, but then do NOT support any gay person wanting to change to straight. If a gay person wants to change to straight, then it's somehow "denying" themselves, or they're being deluded or manipulated, but going the other way, it's somehow "being true to themselves" or something like that. If a gay person goes straight, these people say they're lying about the experience, but if a straight person goes gay, somehow they are being truthful about their experience. That whole double-standard thing just really sickens me and makes me angry, especially since it usually comes from those who talk about respecting individual choice.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 01-22-2007 at 05:29 PM. |
01-22-2007, 05:41 PM | #194 | |||
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I definitely agree with you, R*an. Political correctness, which includes this inconsistency, has a fluffy and sweet exterior, but a very, very ugly underbelly.
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Irrationality in worldviews does drive me (privately) bonkers . I can respect many who disagree with me and respect a number of their views, though.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-22-2007 at 05:43 PM. |
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01-22-2007, 05:49 PM | #195 | |
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Glad you agree with me
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01-23-2007, 04:53 AM | #196 | |
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I think I see the point you're trying to make (about double standards) BUT this is so SO over-simplified. This "gay goes straight - straight goes gay" - what is it, a playground where you choose where to sit?! I as a straight person won't "go gay", whatever that means, for sure. I can't imagine my life with a woman as I can with a man, and I don't have any desire to do so. And I don't think people just go gay or go back to straight or whatever. I've grown into my sexuality - homosexual people do the same, they grow and discover, it is just harder for them because what they discover in themselves is a deviation from the norm, and many times they are hard pressed to conceal it to be accepted. All I'm trying to say is, action and orientation aren't the same and as far as action goes, I can kind of undestand your words AND I ####ing respect individual choice of action!! (Just as I already said here.) If a person with homosexual feelings decides not to lead that way of life, great for him/her I say, if s/he feels content and happy and okay with life that way. And again things are not black and white, and if a man who had homosexual relationships but then settles and leads a happy life with a woman, and if in those moments of thinking that nobody else can see, he's honest to himself and feels content deep inside - well most likely he's bisexual and found his happiness on the side of a woman. The point is finding our way of life, and not settle with something solely because of the expectations of others, be it about any kind of sexuality, or, well, any aspect of life we think we should lead, because THAT is self-denial. OF COURSE we want what we think is best for our loved ones and try to convince them, but when the decision is made we should accept it, even if it didn't match our expectations... Right, I'll stop now. This whole thing didn't add anything to the "homosexual marriage"-debate anyway. Meh. I hope I've at least shown I'm not double standard. PS. That "man getting surgery to cange to a woman" is SO completely another matter... what precedes such a surgery is a discord between body and mind and gender identity... I don't know much about this but I'm guessing it's much MUCH more complicated and difficult to find a way out. But again, if the individual decision is made, it should be respected. PS.2. I wouldn't call anyone a liar. Maybe not even if I knew for sure that it was so. For me it's one of the rudest insults that can ever be uttered...
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I'm good in bed - I can sleep for days Last edited by littleadanel : 01-27-2007 at 05:53 AM. Reason: meh, typos |
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01-23-2007, 12:16 PM | #197 |
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This is like the Shakespeare thing: people WON'T let Shakespear be Shakespeare.
A: Shakespeare was a good writer. B: No, he didn't exist and he didn't write those plays. A: Shakespeare was a moral man. B: Shakespeare was gay. So you say, LittleAdanel, that perhaps that gay person who "went straight" is Bisexual. Does that have to be the case, because people don't lie when they say they are gay? Some people fool themselves one way, others another. Rian is exactly right, everyone blabbers about how nobody should pretend to be straight if they're gay, but when the gay guy starts noticing that he isn't gay anymore he's "going back" and somehow being dishonest to himself. And that is a bunch of rot! Person: "I'm gay!" College: "Awesome! That's great!" Person: "I don't think I was gay afterall" College: "Don't give in to the hatred man! Be yourself!" I don't think it's black and white, but I do think it's fairly simple. What gets complicated is exploring the thoughts going on in these people's heads.
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01-23-2007, 12:51 PM | #198 |
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What is this bizarre and weird world you inhabit??
On the one hand, everywhere you go in your entire life, there are messages about being straight and conforming to the norm, all through your life from when you are born till when you die. On the other, some PC people somewhere question whether an "out" person is "going back in the closet". Now, one of these influences is a pea, the other is a planet. Which one do you think? |
01-23-2007, 12:58 PM | #199 |
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Some people can't distinguish a pea from a planet Gaffer...
If you're saying that the questioners who wonder about some person "going back in the closet" don't have influence, then I think you're qrong. Never before in history did we have a way to connect similar people together. Hammy in Chicago might have wondered if there was a guy in London with the same strange balding pattern as he, but he could only wonder. Nowadays all he has to do is enter "Looking for: strange balding pattern men" into mySpace. My point is simple: there are enough people on both sides of the issue nowadays to yank your arms off if you're caught between a decision.
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01-23-2007, 01:05 PM | #200 |
Elf Lord
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I never thought you were one of them, Hector!
Go on, take a guess. |
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