Discussion Thread Number 3 Of Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

...I believe there was no mention of the effects being at all long term or permanant until this:

Yes, that's what I was referring to.

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

I think it's good that this mind-cpntrol stuff is being discussed and that any limitations set on it should hold for both 'good' and 'bad' characters.
CS is right in that we should definitely strive to avoid setting double standards.

I see no reason why mind-control with boundaries cannot be used.

I can agree with all this. What does everyone else think?


I'm sorry to see some of the comments I'm seeing here now, because they are personal criticisms, not criticisms of the game elements I didn't invent Arastud with Annawen in mind. I eventually brought them together because I always liked the Faramir/Eowyn thing, and thought it would be fun to give a tribute to JRRT's writing (I was bringing in references to Harry Potter, too). I thought you guys might get a kick out of my quoting JRRT exactly in my post.

And about "critics" - I think we should keep the discussion to criticizing and discussing game elements, NOT people. Although I like the vast majority of the posts here, I've found a few themes by some posters repeatedly and intensely boring, but I don't see any profit in actually naming the person whose posts I find boring and telling them that.

Personally, I don't see why Zimra wouldn't help even if it's at night. What is there to be discreet about? After all, it's their house, and she's their servant.

[Lotesse]

Well, it's a HUGE house, and it's like 2 in the morning or something, and she hasn't been asked for - purposely, because us Nazgul have a vested interst tonight in remaining out of sight, out of mind and out of notice of anyone like maids. Merwen was quite enough for one night!! So, it's O.K. for Zimra to take care of her cousin and sleep, whilst the Nazgul privately eat drink & talk in the secret study... BTW you guys - CS? I made the alterations & additions you were asking about, to my last post. It is post #428, on pg. 22

[Rían]

Eärniel - I'm going to change plans. I've contacted TD about Khamul firing Rian at Orrodel, but our characters are kind of stuck until the Nazgul finish up their discussion, and I don't want to make them feel rushed. Do you want to write the scene where they go to Eärniel's friends' house now? We can write the firing later when the Nazgul are finished with their discussion. I'll write a transition scene now.

EDIT - wait, how do I do that? Our characters are at morning, but the people at Orrodel are still at around 2 or 3, I think. Should we just wait, or is it OK to write at slightly different time periods?

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I'm sorry to see some of the comments I'm seeing here now, because they are personal criticisms, not criticisms of the game elements I didn't invent Arastud with Annawen in mind. I eventually brought them together because I always liked the Faramir/Eowyn thing, and thought it would be fun to give a tribute to JRRT's writing (I was bringing in references to Harry Potter, too). I thought you guys might get a kick out of my quoting JRRT exactly in my post.

And about "critics" - I think we should keep the discussion to criticizing and discussing game elements, NOT people. Although I like the vast majority of the posts here, I've found a few themes by some posters repeatedly and intensely boring, but I don't see any profit in actually naming the person whose posts I find boring and telling them that.

Annawen, Arastud and Lilly and rpg-Rian are GAME ELEMENTS, or GAME CHARACTERS, not people. Nobody said that your writing was boring. But the plotlines with every maid getting her very own beau are elements of the game, nothing else.
As for not inventing Arastud with Annawen in mind please see this post here:
#847 First discussion thread

[Earniel]

Hm, a lot to answer...

Originally Posted by Gordis

- Well, the nazgul can give Black breath very easily, almost automatically. That is canon. I see a clear parallel between Eowyn and Melwen with her frying pan.
As for HEALING black breath, it is NOT canon that the nazgul can do that.
Do you wish it to be changed?

I don't need it to be changed. But I do think it goes a little too easy. After all, when you stab somebody it doesn't mean you can take the stab wound away like that either. Nazgul have of course more abilities than normal humans, which I realise and accept, but I don't really think healing is the nazgul's forte.

For the record, I don't believe in extensive edits since I consider the chances of anyone reading it (after the game is played) to be slim, and I don't think editting the game should require more effort than the initial game writing.

But I do want it to be considered in the future that these things shouldn't come so easily. Look, my problem doesn't lie so much with the seperate abilities of the nazgul but more with the whole: as a whole you got a large number of powers with far less limitations and flaws. And the limitations IMO don't balance up with the extent of AU abilities that you have shown so far.

Great Idea! ...Joking.

Oops! When will I learn to keep my mouth shut...

Messing with people's minds. Canonically nazgul could mess with minds to some extent. To what? Let us discuss it. Please, note, that not a single nazgul in this RPG was able to read thoughts of any of your elven or royal characters. Your shields worked.

I don't mind the reading part over much. As far as I'm concerned you can pick up some intentions and thoughts from Eärniel whether she wants it or not. Some things can be easily picked up by a perceptive person. And she's not going to walk around daily with a titanium shield up. Personally I'm not very fond of the mind tricks so I intend to avoid them as much as I can.

My problem rests more with the interfering and changing part. Such as Melwen. You say now that the implanted idea will not be permanently. Which is indeed better IMO, but that wasn't evident from the posts in the game or discussion thread until now. So it's understandable we ask about it.

I'll admit I had forgotten about Oreturion's implanting of a thought in Marty's mind. I suppose it slipped under my radar because it seemed more like a suggestion, and something that wasn't contrary to his character. But the fact that it is brought up underlines, I suppose, the need for setting limits for all players.

- Now animal's reaction. Sorry, why would mere animals be more sensitive to the hidden nazgul presence than Elves? Really, why?

You made for the beginning on clear that we couldn't play any calaquendi elves in the game and that those were the only ones to be able to see through the disguise of the nazgul. We all accepted that. Now we're just trying to ply canon to the rules set in this game.

What I'm trying to say is: It's not like all birds must suddenly make a detour around the nagzul or have all horses bolting. But I think that occasionally mentioning a goose that starts crying or a dog that starts whining only adds to the fearful image of the nazgul. It doesn't even have to be obvious and it doesn't have to be happening all the time. But at least some negative reaction from the animals might just add that little bit of creepiness. It's not like when a goose starts crying that every one is going to cry 'Nazgul! Run for the hills!'

And the nazgul cannot go to Rivendell. Isn't it a limitation?

It is indeed a reasonable limitation, but since our game doesn't take place even near there, it hardly has impact on the game.

Taking apart someone's mind is not easy, especially one's of Royal blood and trained to shield it, like Val was. Ilmenzor's mind was taken apart like that, but this required MONTHS of torture and direct confrontation of wills and the use of the full power of the Morgul Lord's ring. And that didn't pass unnoticed, it left Ilmenzor a broken man.

I'm glad you say that, but so far that has not been evident from the game. Maybe this is just me or some of the non-nazgul players misinterpreting, but when you read the game thread, aside from what the poster's intentions were, the nazgul come across as as powerful as maiar would be and nigh invincible.

As "for our undead brethren", they were immobilized by Khamul, using the more powerful Ring. The rings connect nazgul to one another, leaving their minds more open and more susceptible to each other, than to the outsiders. And no minds were broken in the process, no secret thoughts revealed.

So basically what you're saying is that he's only able to do that to nazgul as the rings are connected?

Some have difficulty even to remain civil to elves.

Even the MM's have difficulty being civil to Elves. No biggie there.

But do you REALLY want to ask Lotesse to part with her horse and owl? To take away her beautiful posts? Not to have a horse race with Ray, that I am really looking forward to? Do you REALLY WANT IT ?

Hooo, that'ss tricksy, preciouss, trying to appeal to my emotions and trying to make me feel bad for even saying anything about her horse. But no, as I said I don't see the use of extensive editting and removing of posts once we're past that part.

This game is meant to be fun, not to stifle all creativity. But for this game to be fun for everyone, there must be some balance. Lotesse can hang on to her horse and owl as far as I am concerned, if they are the exeption rather than the rule. Laslech's situation is already too far advanced to go turning it around now any way.

What i'm trying to explain is, that if now animals even go out seeking the nazgul, it's completely the opposite of what nazgul normally represent. I don't mind going AU on some parts in this game, but I don't think we have to overdo it. So no, I'm not saying this or that has to be changed immediatly. But I think it is no more than fair to ask to tone it down a little in the future.

But as I said it is the combination of extensive nazgul powers that I disagree with. So far I think the limitations are too few for the range of abilities. Normal people can fear fire and water too. But then normal people also tend to die when they get their throat cut...

And the good side has even got a talking sword!

Which isn't necesarily a benefit. (Note to self: Must read less Pratchett...)

[Rían]

Saying a person's plotline is dull is not saying a person's writing is dull?

I don't see how that compares to discussing game elements in order to set game rules, which is what we're doing here.

I guess I remembered wrong about Arastud - interesting that you found the post.

[Serenoli]

Seems like I missed a huge debate...

I agree that the Nazgul seem too powerful. I didn't notice it myself much, but now its been pointed out, and I've read both sides of the story, I agree. I also think there shouldn't be too much in the way of animal reactions, but a little bit for atmosphere may not be so bad.

It seems most of us are in agreement that there should now be some limitations set on the power available to both sides. Can we discuss that, then? It would be nice if someone well versed in canon would set down a few laws, and we could then agree or disagree on them? It would help a lot if I knew exactly what is acceptable, and what is not.

And is no one is doing the scene before the Chancellor's leecture to all Nazgul, I'll do it, so both Lotesse and CS can rest a little. I am however very likely to make mistakes, as has been demonstrated before , so someone tell me where I go wrong.

[Rían]

(edit - worded more accurately in next post)

[Lotesse]

Hi, Serenoli! If you will, don't forget to look at my revised post #428, O.K.? Because I changed it a little bit...

[Rían]

We've heard some ideas from the non-Nazgul characters - could we please have some suggestions from the Nazgul characters for suggested limitations?

[Lotesse]

Well, doesn't the Calling All Nazgul Info thread pretty much cover it? Plus I'd like to add that if a particular, unique animal so CHOOSES that animal can actually like a nazgul, yet this would be a pretty rare phenomenon (except for wolves and birds of prey) but not an impossible phenomenon.

I propose that Nazguls can read minds to varying degrees depending on length of practice and education about it, even though I also find mind-reading w/out permission to be low-class but Nazgul are supPOSED to be evil. Khamul and the Morgul Lord especially. If the King's men who are just mortal MEN are allowed to read whatever mind strikes their fancy, how is a NAZGUL going to be deprived of such skills? It does NOT make sense.
also I propose they can definitely plant suggestions and mental commands. Like when they did to Frodo at the Ford that time.

And they can heal wounds that they themselves have inflicted, be it knife or sword wounds or Black Despair or whatever.

Udu - liked your post! I like how iritated with everyone Udu is; it really fits perfectly. Now we need Gordis to lead the talk, and I'll fall in where appropriate after the discussion's underway.

The Secret Study- I'm still hunting for good pix for our secret study; this can be one corner of it.
http://www.proni.gov.uk/records/priv...s/pict0514.jpg

[The last sane person]

Meh!! I ****ing lost the god damn race post!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO......OO OOOOOOOOOOO.....Ect. Arg!!!!!!!

[Lotesse]

Oh my god that SUX so so bad. That's awful. Maybe if you click "back" you can still find it?

[The last sane person]

I tried! ****!!!!

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

We've heard some ideas from the non-Nazgul characters - could we please have some suggestions from the Nazgul characters for suggested limitations?

Rian, it is rather difficult in the midst of a game to come up with limitations. I have participated in other games that did not start out with rules. What befell them were constant argumentation and disputations among the players. It was decided that the players would set up a standard of rules and a committee was agreed upon to do this. The committee spent months arguing among themselves as to what should be the best rules. Finally, after two years of no game, those remaining participants decided to call a halt since there were no rules.

I have found that the games that are the most successful are run by one or two people called gamemasters. They set the rules, they publish the rules, make the maps, do all the necessary things to make the game orderly, but they are total dictators. MERP and other games are played this way.

Personally, I have no objections whatsoever to having flocks of geese waddling away, squawking in fear; dogs barking and running with their tails between their legs; the cows becoming so frightened that they can no longer give milk; flocks of sheep and goats bolting panic-stricken and running across the field; herds of horses neighing and running in fear away when Udu rides by. My horse can hate me and I will probably hate him too and not be at all adverse to whacking him across the head with a riding bat.

All the corpses in the ceremetary of Tharbad can be possessed by fell spirits and walk abroad on moonless nights, terrifying people at random but if possible, sacrificing someone to Melkor. The peasants can even rise up in hatred and rush upon my place of abode, screaming, determined to kill me, brandishing pitchforks, shovels, mattocks, axes, swords, and perhaps even one with a wooden stake and hammer in his hand. The Constable can go by at night and listen to the dogs howling, knowing instantly where the drunken professor is wandering. They can chase me, fleeing across the countryside, riding the horse that despises me and would kill me if it could. I will enjoy the chase and pursuit, just so the "STORY IS GOOD." That is all I ask.

There is something strange going on in Tharbad... What dark evil is abroad upon its streets? Stay tuned until next week.

Happy Belated Halloween, Everyone.

[Lotesse]

That was a killer post just now, Udu! Yes, the bottom line is - The Story.

[The last sane person]

*snerk* Hehehe....Yeah, this power of the nazgul thing is starting to be a bit of a pain to argue about...

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Udukhaturz

Rian, it is rather difficult in the midst of a game to come up with limitations.

I know I'm the only non-Nazgul person on now, and that's why you quoted my post, but please remember that there's a group of us requesting this discussion. I'm not even the one that first brought it up!

If we are not allowing discussion, then rpg-Rian shall soon show some interesting characteristics ...

CS - I'm sorry you find my storylines dull. I think it's fun that we're all different. I imagine the ones that I find dull, you like the best!

[The last sane person]

Hmm....you think Rian and her friends would go to a nice pub to dance and stuff? Cause that would be a nice place to have them interact with Marty and Ray, maybe the next day or so...or later that night. Seeing as we havent really interacted that much.

[Rían]

Sure, Sane, that sounds fun!! I'd like that. I had to get some mega-posts out of the way to establish 2 new characters, and now I'm diving back into the interaction with others, which I"m looking forward to. I wanted to have Khamul and Rian decide about her employment (I can guess how Khamul might go! ) but need to wait for the Nazgul discussion to finish up, so the 4 elves are going to head over to Earniel's friend's house now instead, as she wanted to post something about that. Then I suppose we have to go to classes, which will be fun then let's hit the pubs!!

Sorry about your post, Sane - MAJOR