the definative balrog answer :)

[Willow Oran]

Weren't the Istari deliberately sent to ME in more definitely incarnate forms though? So their inability to shape-shift would have been willingly undertaken and an exception to their normal abilities.

As for Balrogs, I like the idea of them being able to generate illusions around themselves in order to be more intimidating. It makes a great deal of sense.
But I do think that they might have had physical wings as well, which, while not enough to enable real flight, might have allowed for gliding or augmented jumping. Tolkien does describe both DB and Glorfindel's balrog as entering those fights by means of some impressive leaps, which means we've either got some shadow/fire demons with the back legs of a Tigger or maybe some wings that can lift these balrogs' weight and help to carry it short distances.

[Valarauko5]

I apologize for the harshness of my earlier statements. But it's obvious to me that the books themselves tell us a Balrog can at least modify its shape and probably if it wanted (though why a Balrog would want to I don't know) change it's form completely. And so far I haven't found evidence to the contrary. Saying that it has an oil slick for skin is a bit silly to me. I would assume that the reason it only bursts into flame outside, is that it had to recuperate some energy or magic force to be able to. Thus the long climb up the stairs instead of just fighting all the way up. And I really don't see the use of physics too much if you can simply use magic. But, putting that aside since I have no real true evidence to support that to me it just seems logicial, and that, I realize, is not an argument. Say it doesn't have wings. How does it leap over a fiery chasm that trolls have to lay great slabs of rock across? It would seem to me that Willow Oran has the right idea. Gliding makes much more sense for a Balrog than flight. To be honest I never believed they could fly completely. I simply think real wings are intimidating and would make you THINK it could fly, thus frightening you further and discouraging flight (haha, pun). And the "smoke screen" it could make would simply further the intimidation property of said wings. Though nobody seemed to answer my earlier question. Why do some people really believe that a Balrog doesn't have wings? Not this "flight in the book is a metaphor" stuff. A real reason?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

Though nobody seemed to answer my earlier question. Why do some people really believe that a Balrog doesn't have wings? Not this "flight in the book is a metaphor" stuff. A real reason?

I don't believe that a Balrog has wings because I haven't seen convincing arguments that it does. On the contrary, I have seen convincing arguments that it doesn't - you can see them in this thread.
If I ask why you don't believe that Gandalf has wings you would answer much the same, though it would be cool to have a winged Istar.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

But it's obvious to me that the books themselves tell us a Balrog can at least modify its shape and probably if it wanted (though why a Balrog would want to I don't know) change it's form completely.

Post a quote, please.

[Attalus]

Don't forget that Saruman seemed to be able to project phantoms of himself, e.g., when Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas were resting. Could this be one of the properties of his mysterious Ring?

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Post a quote, please.

I'd ask for the same as DPR, a quote or something to back up that statement. Because if your referring to what I think you're (Valarauko) referring to, namely 1) the Balrog's wing-like shadow-projection and 2) it's slimy form in the underground sea in its fight with Gandalf, then I'd argue that neither of these are nothing but very perifal indicators that it might be able to change its shape. But it does not even conclude whether the Balrog does so willingly or not, because the shadow-projection might have been nothing but a form of hallucination on the part of the Company. And the slimy form it had in the underground sea, as Jonathan remarked, could have been caused by its body contacting water, instead of it consciously producing a slimy form. The fact that it emits fire and black smoke could point to some oily attribute and that would go along way in explaining its slimy form in contact with water.

[Varnafindë]

Off topic:

Originally Posted by Gordis

If I ask why you don't believe that Gandalf has wings you would answer much the same, though it would be cool to have a winged Istar.

A winged Maia - isn't that as close to an angel as you can get?

Back to topic.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Off topic:
A winged Maia - isn't that as close to an angel as you can get?

Yea, that's why I thought about Gandalf. Something like that: Gandalf is an Angel (see Letters). Angels have wings (see the Bible). Therefore Gandalf has wings.
It is an argument - but is it convincing?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I'm convinced. Gandalf had wings which he kept hidden under his cloak and/or hat.

[Galin]

I think the cloak was the wings...

In a dream Frodo saw Gandalf: 'On it rode a grey-mantled figure: his white hair was streaming, and his cloak flew like wings behind him.' Chapter V The Fourth Phase (i), The Treason of Isengard. OK that's a draft text (and a dream), but Gandalf could fly: 'Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company.'

Well, he needs to work on his landing a bit maybe.

[Gordis]

Awesome!

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Off topic:



A winged Maia - isn't that as close to an angel as you can get?

Back to topic.

Gandalf may well have had wings in his original form, but we are told explictly that the Istari were clothed in the form of old (human) men and that they had to endure Middle-earth in that form.

[Gordis]

Yea, Manwe had cropped Olorin's wings with rusty scissors before sending him to ME.

[Valarauko5]

Hey guys. Does anyone have a facebook? I really respect you guys and I need some backup on this stupid kid on there. These people are designing a game that's supposed to be based on the LotR books (it actually looks promising) and this guy Ross is giving them a wicked hard time. They asked people to put up Monster names (like specific names for Orcs and other creatures) and other Monster races from the books (like barrow wights, and werewolves). And this kid is just an idiot. He tried to tell me that Orome was a Maia! Went on and on correcting me. Could any of you help me out? I realize we don't all see eye to eye on things, but at least you guys actually think about what you say and know what you're talking about.

[Jonathan]

Sliding slightly off topic here, unless Durin's Bane has his own Facebook account of course

[Attalus]

Durin's Bane wouldn't have his own Facebook account, because, whatever Balrogs are, they are not banal and jejune.

[Valarauko5]

um. If I knew what banal and jejune were I don't think I would be them. But I'm a balrog, and I have a Facebook. I realize it's off topic. But like I said. You guys actually know what you're talking about. I was just wondering if you would look at the "the one ring game" group if you did have a facebook. That's all.

[Coffeehouse]

I'll check it out And Attalus thinks it somewhat common and childish by those two words.. each to his own I guess Facebook rox!

P.S. I found the discussion you're having in Facebook, and I'll publish it here , though I won't include your name Valarauko for your privacy:

Title of thread (in a LOTR Facebook group):
"Monster Names needed"

Thread request:
"As part of our game design and community development we would like you to be part of the game design process. We need names for all the generic monsters that you encounter in Middle-earth. They're of the type; Orcs (all types), Men (Harad and Easterlings), Trolls (all types), Wargs/Wolves (all types), Spiders and Spirits. Ideally all non-human names should be in Black-speech and where possible indicate

So put your suggestions here - ideally of the format:

Orc: Snaga (slave) etc
Troll: Tom. Bill etc

Thanks"

Valarauko's answer (correct me if this isn't your post from Facebook):
I'm assuming that you guys want basic MONSTER types. Not just characters right? Or do you want some other good characters too? Have you put in the characters of Balrog: Gothmog (Balrog General), and Giant Hound: Charcharoth (Morgoth's personal guard dog). They are from the Silmarillion. And if you still want good characters, Giant Angelic Hound: Huan (Angelic hound and friend to elves). The first hound is a natural (if modified and magic'd) hound. He was fed by Morgoth's hand and thus became large and powerful. The second hound is a Maia, putting him in the same power level as Sauron, but on the good side.

Response by another person on Facebook:
"First of all in the world of Tolkien werewolves are not like the werewolves people massively talk about today, werewolves were servants of Sauron who could take the shape of a wolf. Also Huan was NOT a Maia(Maiar is plural), he was the hunting hound of Oromë, Oromë gave Huan to Celegorm son of Faënor for he was a great hunter also.After the darkining of Valinor, Faënor and his sons took the Oath of Faënor and went after Morgoth into Middle-Earth,and Huan followed them. Oromë was a Maia,and Maiar are lesser forms of the Valar. The Valar are 14 powerful spirits who took physical form and entered Arda after its creation to give order to the world. Also Huan was not a Maia,therefore not the same power as Sauron, now in the Lay of Leithian, the story of Beren(the man) and Lúthien Tinúviel(nightengale of Doriath and daughter of Thingol and Melian, King and Queen of Doriath and the fairest elf that ever lived), Beren was captured by Sauron and with the aid of Luthien, Huan took her to Saurons Isle(Minas Tirith) and rescued Beren. Now during that rescue Luthien and Huan were stopped oustide Tol-in-Gaurhoth(Tol Sirion=Minas Tirith) by Drauglin the sire of werewolves. Drauglin being the mightiest wolf at the time,was mortaly wound by Huan and fled to his master Sauron,and with his dieing breath told him that it was Huan and Luthien outside. Now Sauron knowing of the prophecies that Huan could only be killed by the mightiest wolf in the world, thought if he changed into wolf form that he may be that wolf,so Sauron changed into a dreadful wolf shape and came after Luthien.Luthien using here enchanted cloak that put most creatures to sleep(how she escaped from doriath to rescure beren),only phased and stunted Sauron, during this daze, Huan sprung and grabbed Wolf-Sauron by the throat.Sauron then tried to change into a snake to escape,but once something has been grasped by Huans jaws nothing and no one can escape it.Only after Sauron surrendered the tower to Luthien was he released from Huans jaws and he fled eastward then to Dorthonion, where he dwelt in the dark pine forests of Taur-nu-Fuin.Then Beren and Luthien were reunited, and Beren using the pelt of Drauglin as a disguise and Luthien and Huan had previously caught Thuringwethil(bat messenger of Sauron) at Tol-in-Gaurhoth, her winged form was taken by Lúthien. From there they had to pass Carcharoth(not CharCharoth) the Red Maw,raised by Sauron in the afore mentioned statement(at least that was right).By Luthiens powers they passed that fowl beast and luthien sang morgoth to sleep,beren then using a dagger to pry a Silmaril from morgoths crown after it had fallen to the ground from his sleep,the dagger broke and hit morgoth,wakeing him,they then fled from Morgoth's lair only to be stopped again by Carcharoth. Carcharoth then bite Berens hand off the clasped the Silmaril, sending the beast into a frenzied rage,this fowl and evil creature now had one of the most pure hallowed artifacts of arda inside him and he was crazed and went trampling throughout middle-earth until beren and luthien informed thingol about what had happened. then began the Hunting of the Wolf.

any other questions i would be happy to help clear out,also going to have a couple of my friends who are even more knowledgeable about the Tolkien works,and they love to correct people even more."

[Valarauko5]

Yes that would be part of it. See what I mean? He calls Orome a Maia not a Valar. And he says that I said Carcharoth was fed by Sauron's hand. Except that I said Morgoth is the one who fed him because that's what the Silmarillion says. I admit I could be wrong about Huan. I'm reading the Silmarillion again to get a handle on it. But I was under the impression he was a Maia. But seeing as we were discussing the Maia and their abilities, even though we have different opinions on some things, you guys know your stuff. Thanks for taking a look. What do you think?

[Valarauko5]

Thanks for not telling everyone who I am. I don't mind the idea but I appreciate the thought there. By the way. Does it say anywhere in the books that the werewolves of Sauron were not like normal werewolves? I don't remember anywhere it saying that.