09-19-2004, 01:06 PM | #181 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Very welcome Nanedhel.
I should have posted my insightful thoughts here, but right now I'm so busy in RL I've hardly time to get in here at all ....
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09-19-2004, 03:54 PM | #182 |
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yes, welcome to the Moot, Nanedhel. Anybody that makes their first post on a thread like this is all right in my book.
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09-20-2004, 12:39 AM | #183 | |
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09-21-2004, 04:04 PM | #184 |
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I never saw Aegnors action as selfish. Seen from the outside he did step back from Andreth, which did hurt her (and him), but we did not learn why exactly he did it. Certainly not to find his luck with some elvish woman (which I would call selfish indeed) as Finrod assured Andreth. The only reason Finrod gives is the habit of Elves not marry in war-time. Finrod doth not tell if the hinted forsight of Aegnors death was his own or the one of his brother - thus I will not speculat on this.
What we are sure of is that Aegnor was a warrior, a champion of the Elves. I think that he saw his duty in the protection of his people in Dorthonion. To marry Andreth would have bound part of his abillity and potential and taken it away from the task he saw as his duty. I don't see how you can sink it selfish to put duty above personal desire. As I see the storys told in the Athrabeth and the story of Adanel the final fate of Men was never really changed. Only the way they archieved it was changed. The underlying conception is clearly christian and thus the idea to look at Adam and Eve before the fall is a good idea but does not bring us further since the Bible didn't give an account of the fate any unfallen men would have been expirenced. But what it gives is an account of the resurection after reconcilation. At least at Tolkiens times this was interpreted as a resurection in incarnated form and not in spirit only. If we try to realte this with what Finrod precifed that men are only guest and are meant to go beyond the world, and that the natural state of an incarnate being (the only one in which he could find a final happiness) would be incarnated, this must mean that in the original state man would come to that state (out side time and space) as incarnated beings with out death. (This is hard to belive but is falisvied - at least for christains - by Jesus and Maria.) After the fall we see man in the situation known so well to us: they dy to be judge by the creator and then after some progatory be resurected in bodily form, but not on earth but in paradise. Respectfully Findegil |
09-22-2004, 07:31 AM | #185 |
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Findegil, as usual with your posts I'm left in thoughtfulness. And again I realise that there are layers in Tolkiens writings that escapes me because I'm not a Christian and though I have some knowledge I do not associate the stories with Christian conceptions.
So you have come to the same conclusion as Finrod - what would have happened to Men unfallen in Arda is similar to what happened to virgin Mary in the Catholic faith. But you do not think that they were in origin 'immortal' within Arda, as Adanel claims? I agree that Aegnor wasn't behaving out of selfishness, he was looking at the situation out of an Elvish point of view, naturally enough. He just didn't think of asking Andreth about her thoughts on the matter. Which I think may be called inconsiderate, at least.
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09-22-2004, 10:33 AM | #186 | |
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I think what Finrod says about Aegnor not taking the hand of a bride of his own kin for Andreth's sake, and also choosing not to return to life, shows just how devoted his love for her was.
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09-23-2004, 01:55 AM | #187 | ||
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I think that if Aegnor had spoken to her and discussed the matter with her, then she would still be grieved at their parting, but maybe she would have gained a better understanding of his reasons, and she could have escaped the bitterness. Quote:
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09-23-2004, 09:26 AM | #188 | |||
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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09-23-2004, 12:50 PM | #189 | ||
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Posted by Artanis:
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About Anderth and Aegnor: We do not know what the state of affairs was when Aegnor draw back. It seems clear to me, from what is told that they had as jet not spoken to each other about anything. I think that both had received signals from each other that their feelings for each other was similar. But that's what I think was all that happened between them. If the affair got further I would find it un-understandable why Aegnor left her without a word. But consider the situation in is manner: You love some one. You have the clear feeling that she has some sympathy for you too. But you two have never openly spoken about it as jet. Now you feel the time has come either to declare yourself (which traditionally would be the part of the man, and is so in all love-stories Tolkien presented to us) or to draw back. Your duty stands against the connection and being ever in danger to be killed (as a warrior clearly is) the connection could soon bring great lose to your beloved. Also you know that in the end there is no chance for a happy end even if fate would spare you from death in battle. After a considerable short time your beloved would be forced to leave you forever. The destination she would go to is unknown to you, only that you are sure that you could never reach her again. Now you are not sure if she would really agree to the connection at all. At least she did know that possibly you will outlive her by fare, and could suspect you of take her now and some one else later (as Andreth does really suggest to Finrod, but would not be acceptable for any one). I do not know which way you would take, but if in such a situation you would decide to draw back and sacrifice your love for your duty, then to talk to your beloved about all you feel, would even rob her of the small chance that she would accept your decision and turn to someone else. By talking to her you would assure her of your love. By that you would clearly make the bound between you stronger for her. Thus even if she would have denied the connection at first hand she would now feel deprived and left-allone. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil : 09-25-2004 at 08:56 AM. |
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09-24-2004, 07:22 PM | #190 |
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(is enjoying reading the posts but still too busy to add her own thoughts...)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-02-2004, 04:04 AM | #191 | |
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Findegil, I agree that the immortality of Men within Arda never existed, and I think that Adanel's story had developed through generations, having its origin in the fact that the lifespan of Men was shortened under the dominion of Morgoth, and in their envy of the immortality of the Elves. But I'm not convinced that the reduction in lifespan of Men was a punishment imposed on them by Eru. I think it may be seen as a natural consequence of their close aquaintance with Morgoth. In another thread, Lefty said that the fëar of Elves had the power to impose long endurance into their bodies, which I think is confirmed by this quote from the Athrabeth:
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There's more I'd like to say, but I haven't got time right now. Later.
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10-03-2004, 09:00 AM | #192 | |
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I would agreed with you Artanis had not Andreth denied exactly your conclusion so strongly:
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She might have been wrong, but considering that Tolkien was a devoted catholic Christian and thus did belief in the ascension of Mariä I think that the Athrabeth is meant to express more than weakening of the hora and fea by the influence of Morgoth. Respectfully Findegil |
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10-04-2004, 03:55 PM | #193 |
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OK, the school's candy sale work has gone way down, so I'll try to catch up here
I just did a quick scan over Athrabeth .... One thing that's really rather unusual for me about this work is the strong sense of ... I'm not quite sure how to word it, but something like the strong sense of place I get when I read this work. Tolkien is so descriptive, that we usually all have pictures in our heads of the places that the people live in and travel thru, but this work is just in a class by itself - I can almost feel the warmth of the fire and hear its crackle, and see Andreth sitting, with sad eyes, and Finrod walking slowly around the room ... I don't know what it is, but this story just generates such strong sensory feelings for me. Does anyone else feel that way? Another note - Finrod uses the name "Melkor" with Andreth. I always thought the Elves refused to call him by that name. Finrod Edennil (Friend of Men), however, was unusual for an Elf, in that he was very intrested in Men. Maybe he just used "Melkor" around Men. Anyway, I found it interesting.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-04-2004, 04:04 PM | #194 | |
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But what she doesn't realize is that Aegnor, because of who and what he is, couldn't "go on ahead!" ... As Finrod says, "But do you think of him? He would not have run before thee. He would have stayed at thy side to uphold thee. Then pity thou wouldst have had in every hour, pity inescapable. He would not have thee so shamed." I think that's an extremely important reason why Aegnor left. I think Finrod gave the "easy" reason first - elves don't wed in war time, and then when that wasn't enough, he decided to give the "harder" reason. And actually, I think this second reason had more weight with Aegnor, altho I could be wrong. Opinions?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-04-2004, 06:28 PM | #195 |
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Well, I think that's a good point Rian. In a way, Finrod seems to try to point out that Andreth needs to see Aegnor's reasoning as much as she wants Finrod to see hers. Aegnor seems to have felt that spending a few good years and then parting would not be possible to do and if it were, it would be even more grievous to them both, than to just not get involved at all. As Finrod explains that the fair but unfinished memory would be better than a memory that goes on to a grievous end.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
10-04-2004, 06:54 PM | #196 |
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I think both Aegnor and Andreth would have chosen what they honestly felt was best for the other person. But their opinions on what was best are just different, because Elves and Humans see things differently. As Finrod says, "Alas! I fear the truth will not satisfy thee. The Eldar have one kind, and ye another, and each judges the others by themselves - until they learn, as few do."
I agree with what you said, that Aegnor feels that "it would be even more grievous to them both" to do what Andreth wants. Andreth disagrees. Unfortunately her side of the choice leaves her unable to do anything about it.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-05-2004, 06:34 AM | #197 |
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That is clearly a good point, RÃ*an!
Maybe Aegnor did really perceived that in the end the relationship would be hard to bear for Andreth because she would have been bound to him and he would not depart from her until she would be dead. But then, would you call his decision good on this basis? I would doubt it at least. Aegnor was willing to spend the time of Andreth live with her, and I think Andreth would have learned to endure his pity or even to see it as a sign of affection as it would clearly have been. (In the end, as we know, he was killed in battle before her death and at least than when he would have been taken away she would have missed his affectionate pity, I would begged.) Thus I still judge that this was not a good reason for Aegnor leafing her, even if that reasoning could have been a comfort to Andreth in the state of mind she was in during the Athrabeth. Still the tale has a for-shadow of a happy end (which would have been what ever Aegnor and Andreth did in this world): "But you are not for Arda. Whither you go may you find light. Await us there, my brother - and me." Respectfully Findegil |
10-05-2004, 05:05 PM | #198 | |||||
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*pardon my rusty German, but I thought you might enjoy something in your language, even if it's not quite right * Quote:
And personally, from reading the Athrabeth quite a few times, and getting a sense of her personality, I think that Andreth would NOT have learned to endure his pity. I think it would have eventually caused her to wish they had not married, or to wish for her death, or to even take her own life. (Obviously these are just my opinions and I have no idea what would have "really happened" - esp. since these aren't real people! But they sure seem like they are!) Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 10-05-2004 at 05:07 PM. |
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10-07-2004, 01:07 PM | #199 | ||
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I don't think that we diver too much. At least we agree that we cannot know how things would have gone, had Aegnor not left Andreth. What we know is that he found his reasons sufficient to leave Andreth in the way he did. That said it does not matter if he was wrong or right. He did what he did and he felt it was the right thing to do in that moment. And it might be that we are no good judges in his part at all, since we do not have enough knowledge about Elves at all. So we should rather look at Finrod, how has a better knowledge and showed much understanding for his brother. Quote:
But if you are right, than Aegnor was quiet right to leave Andreth , for when that was the way Andreth was like than she is in my view in no way able to handle any stable partnership. (That last argument is a bit overdone, but it is still in a way to the point.) Respectfully Findegil |
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10-07-2004, 01:34 PM | #200 |
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Well, I think we are talking about two people here that are as different as night and day, not only in cultures, but in fate. It is true that neither had a total understanding of the other's, but, both were living in Arda. One had already lived a substantial amount of time. The other brief and even at her end, a brief existance in comparison to his. Who is wiser then? Should the outcome of their destiny with one another be brought about by his decision alone, which is based perhaps more wisely, or her decision, which is based more individually? He did, I think, what he thought was best for both. I think she simply did not understand how hard it would be when time went by. The fact of her ageing and him not, the fact that she would die and he may not, are considerations that he took into account. It's easy for her to say to Finrod that she would not have troubled Aegnor after her short youth was spent, than to have faced the actual event. She loved him deeply. Could she then have parted from him so easily for his sake? I don't think so, not as long as she was alive. I think he made his decision and not lightly, for both their sakes, because she couldn't have. Had he stayed with her and forsaken his kin and the war and perhaps had children, they (the children) would have been the first Halfelven. Would they have had a choice? The outcome would have been so different. What "high purpose of doom" did this union have?
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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