REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Valandil
Yes, we do believe that souls are immortal. Interesting... I didn't even know that about 7th Day Adventists. (any Adventists out there to confirm or deny, btw?)

Our church actually accepts all the standard mainstream teachings. We accept the Apostles Creed, for instance. We haven't added anything to, or taken anything away from scripture - or come up with any ideas that are contrary to predominant, traditional Christian teachings. We are Christ-centered, with an emphasis on the Holy Spirit - but it's nothing unorthodox.

thanks

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Giroth
Ruinel,
I have discussed my desire to go to church with my parents.My mother is also a christian, but my dad isn't,of course. And if you knew my dad,you would know when NO MEANS NO.................*sigh

I'm really sorry to hear that your dad doesn't see things your way. Perhaps someday, when you are on your own, you can make the decision for yourself (to attend a church or not).

When my mom moved us to a new state, she sometimes worked on Sundays, she had called the church and asked if anyone there could do a car pool and pick us kids up for mass on Sundays. They weren't very friendly and they told her that she'd have to just find someone on her own. We were new and she didn't know anyone at all. So we just didn't go for several years. I was already in doubt about religion as a whole (even after attending Catholic school from 1st grade on).

Sometime later, she made friends with a Baptist couple who invited her to church (by this time, she wasn't working Sundays anymore). She accepted and dragged us kids along. People were "fake friendly," I could tell and I hated it. I hated everything about the Baptist religion. The people were so negative when referring to other religions and so hypocritical and gossipy, it turned my stomach.

The next week, my mom said, let's get ready for church and I said "I'll go back to that church when hell freezes over" (I made sure she was already dressed up when I said it so she would get after me too bad). I caught some $h!t for that, but it was worth it because I never had to go again. I went when my mom got baptised in the Baptist church (which I still think was a mistake because she later went back to the Catholic church), but that was it.

I was already in high school when I refused to go to the Baptist church, so I'm not recommending that you tell your dad off or anything. I'm just saying that this is what I did.

So, I know it sounds weird that an Atheist should tell you that she hopes you get to attend church as you want. But not really if you think about it. I think that people have to make up their minds on their own about such matters. No one should make up your mind for you it there is a god or not. You have to find that truth on your own.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Valandil
...Nice website at nazarene.org - if I can say that here...? [EDIT: if Ruinel, an Admin or a moderator objects to this being here, I'll edit it out and invite mooters to PM me for the web site]

Nope, no objection. That's why I started this thread, to allow for a free discussion. Tell us about what you believe, why, etc. Ask your own questions too. That's why I have it here. I'm not selling Atheism. I'm not just keeping this site open for anyone who wants to learn more about Atheism. It's for people to discuss and question and answer. You've done so.

Probably longer answer than you wanted... but a lot of people are still unfamiliar with us - so maybe this anticipates follow-up questions.

Acutally, I don't think it was a long answer at all. People are curious about what others believe and why. That's why I started this thread.

This thread is for anyone to post in, be they Atheist (me, AE, JD, and others), Agnostic (IR, and others), Muslim, Jew (Rad, & HOBBIT, the Jew-Atheist ), Christian (the list is too long ), Hindu, Wiccan, etc.

[Valandil]

Ruinel,

I had the impression you wouldn't mind... thanks!

[Giroth]

I actually do appreciate it,ruinel.What I beleive it not what people tell me to beleive,but what I feel myself.

Have a nice day,

~Giroth

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Giroth
I actually do appreciate it,ruinel.What I beleive is not what people tell me to beleive,but what I feel myself.

Nor should you ever believe what others tell you to believe. Make up your own mind as to what the truth is.

For all posters of this thread: I hope to never change the purpose of this thread into anything other than what I intend it to be. So, if I ever do that, bring this post up to me.

[Giroth]

heheheh


And yes,I have made up my mind on what I personally beleive is true.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Giroth
heheheh


And yes,I have made up my mind on what I personally beleive is true.

Ah... good...
Now I need only bring you over to the dark side!!!
MWHAHAHAHA


... just joking

[Giroth]

HAHAHA,those smilies are hilarious!


"Giroth.......I am your mother.......you mustr join the dark side!"Ruinel says...

"NO!!!!!!Your not my mother!!!!!!!!!It''s not true!It can't be!"Giroth screams.

*they engage in lightsaber battle

Sorry,couldn't help it.

[Ruinel]

MWHAHAHA!!! That's truely funny!

erhem... back on topic.

[Brill]

Some one asked if my beliefs were of my own interpretation...

No, my neighbor is a pastor of a methodist church, although I do not regularly attend, I do have discussions of a theological nature with him, I also read to many concordances for my own good...I like to see the differences between interpretations and it helps me understand how people derive that from the Bible.

Gwaimir,
as I have said before, I will not call myself a Christian because that in some way (in my opinion) implies I am a good person, which I know I am not. I don't want people to judge my God for who I am.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Brill
Some one asked if my beliefs were of my own interpretation...

No, my neighbor is a pastor of a methodist church, although I do not regularly attend, I do have discussions of a theological nature with him, I also read to many concordances for my own good...I like to see the differences between interpretations and it helps me understand how people derive that from the Bible.

Gwaimir,
as I have said before, I will not call myself a Christian because that in some way (in my opinion) implies I am a good person, which I know I am not. I don't want people to judge my God for who I am.

Well, I don't infer that someone is a good person because they call themselves a Christian....or a Buddhist or Muslim or Hindu or Humanist; and I don't think that anyone who makes that claim is necessarily calling themselves good either.

To call oneself a Christian is simply making a statement about your beliefs; not to make any claims on how well or poorly you live up to them.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Sorry to drag up an old discussion, but here goes:

Saints.

While browsing a Catholic apologetic site, I found an excellent answer to the Reformation old question, "Where does the Bible say to pray to dead saints?!" Where does the Bible say the saints are dead? Again and again, we see in the New Testament a theme of non-death. She is not dead, she only sleeps; I am the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob; he is the God of the living, not the dead; and so on, and so on. An absolute separation of the dead from the living which so many Christians hold is not (as far as I know) Biblically supportable. The Saints are really just as alive as you and me, I say. I think that life is, for the Christian, not measured by beating pulse or by breath on a mirror. True, spiritual Life (or Zoe in Mere Christianity) is something infinitely greater, something infinitely deeper imparted by God himself, which no speeding bullet, illness, or skidding car can take away. Would a Christian ask a friend to pray for him or her, or ask for help? Really, I don't think we're so far apart as many believe.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Sorry to drag up an old discussion, but here goes:

Saints.

While browsing a Catholic apologetic site, I found an excellent answer to the Reformation old question, "Where does the Bible say to pray to dead saints?!" Where does the Bible say the saints are dead? Again and again, we see in the New Testament a theme of non-death. She is not dead, she only sleeps; I am the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob; he is the God of the living, not the dead; and so on, and so on. An absolute separation of the dead from the living which so many Christians hold is not (as far as I know) Biblically supportable. The Saints are really just as alive as you and me, I say. I think that life is, for the Christian, not measured by beating pulse or by breath on a mirror. True, spiritual Life (or Zoe in Mere Christianity) is something infinitely greater, something infinitely deeper imparted by God himself, which no speeding bullet, illness, or skidding car can take away. Would a Christian ask a friend to pray for him or her, or ask for help? Really, I don't think we're so far apart as many believe.

Yes isn't it that we have an immortal soul that's the important part?

[Ruinel]

I heard something interesting just the other day, that I'd like to share and expand on.

Someone said that they were disturbed by the growing number of Atheists in the world and particularly in the US. They feared that this country (the US) would turn immoral and unethical because there would be no god to guide our conscience.

It's very funny that they said this. I actually chuckled.

You see, christians can always ask for their god's forgiveness. That forgiveness would be granted, no matter what horrific crime they committed. "Poof" they enter heaven simply by repenting and asking their god to forgive them.

Atheists don't have that luxury. There's no one to ask forgiveness of. What you do here on earth is remembered by everyone you come into contact with. What you do is the legacy you leave behind. Therefore, the pressure of always doing the right thing by your fellow human is always upon you.

If you look back in time, to the first discussions of morality and ethics, it was not Christians who started it. It was so called Pagans (Plato was not a christian ).

Of all the criminals in prisons today (in the US), how many do you think are Atheists? I seriously doubt that more than 5% are such. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any statistics on the Net to confirm my beliefs, so if anyone finds this, I'd be grateful to know the real count. The vast majority of prisoners are christians, I believe.

Does this mean that we need to fear the christians who rape, steal, murder, bugger little boys, etc.? Maybe. Maybe not.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: throw 'em to the lions!

[Ruinel]

No, I'm serious now. I have actually heard Christians speak their concerns that if Atheists took over, we'd have a moralless society. What do you think about this?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Well, to be perfectly honest, I don't have any idea where Atheists get their morality; of course, really, much of Western morality for everyone is a leftover from Christian Europe; but really, I have yet to hear any reason or source for Atheist morality. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Atheists are immoral people; far from it. I just mean that I don't understand reasoning for morality. With Christians, our morality comes from God; but where does it come from for you?

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Well, to be perfectly honest, I don't have any idea where Atheists get their morality; of course, really, much of Western morality for everyone is a leftover from Christian Europe; but really, I have yet to hear any reason or source for Atheist morality. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Atheists are immoral people; far from it. I just mean that I don't understand reasoning for morality. With Christians, our morality comes from God; but where does it come from for you?

I can't speak for everyone but I'll say where my morality comes from: Common Sense.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Could you elaborate?