Blame FÃ«anor - Page 10

ElemmÃrÃ« · 02-13-2005, 07:30 PM

And now I shall officially spam my own thread...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falagar

Then one also has to accept that all the evil (as well as the good) came from Eru, and thus Eru can't really be a 'good' God.

I am assuming that every Christian here is about to jump on me for my heretical belief that Eru/God is not entirely good.

Nothing in the Letters will convince me otherwise. Since Eru technically is the Christian god (unless I've misread everything), then I have every right to transfer my ideas about that God onto Eru.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falagar

There were some positive effects, but true, most of his actions were evil. I haven't claimed he ever did much good anyway. I still love him though.

Ah yes, I remember now. You are one of the true FÃ«anorian crowd. I must admit it's nice to have a true supporter around with whom to argue and debate.

I myself adore several of his sons... that's part of the reason I hate FÃ«anor himself. I can't forgive him for what he did to them.

[edited] Post 181.

I am stunned by the size to which this thread has somehow managed to grow...

**Nurvingiel** · 02-13-2005, 08:00 PM

I bet you'll blame FÃ«anor for that too! (The spam...)

Okay, for the sake of agument all free-will debates can be ignored.

However, I still don't see how, by your logic, you can apply retroactive blame, and not retroactive credit.

Similairly, more than only FÃ«anor's actions are involved in some of the bad things he was part of. He was to blame for a lot, but not every single thing that went wrong in Arda, that's my take on it.

Sorry you missed the bus though buddy! *comforts*

Elemmire's handy new excuse: Sorry I'm late, FÃ«anor made me miss the bus! What do you mean how? He tricked me and I was captured by Sauron!

FÃ«anor ate my homework!

Or maybe better... FÃ«anor used my lab results to make the palintiri! That's why I can't turn it in...

ElemmÃrÃ« · 02-13-2005, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I bet you'll blame FÃ«anor for that too! (The spam...)

Hm... Well, since it is his fault this thread was created (mine...? what do you mean, mine...?

Au contraire!), it technically is his fault that I'm now spamming it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

However, I still don't see how, by your logic, you can apply retroactive blame, and not retroactive credit.

Ah. I suppose I didn't touch on that. No, retroactive credit can definitely be applied too, where it's due. But... just as the real reasons why he can be blamed (

) outnumber the reasons he can be praised, I think more bad in the past can possibly be attributed to him than good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Similairly, more than only FÃ«anor's actions are involved in some of the bad things he was part of. He was to blame for a lot, but not every single thing that went wrong in Arda, that's my take on it.

Honestly, that's my take on it too. For the sake of the thread, though, I've tried to prove that it is everything that's his fault. I love a good, hopeless debate. I'm sure some of my compatriots believe it

, but for myself, I agree with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Sorry you missed the bus though buddy! *comforts*

Thanks.

I didn't have a bus schedule on me, and someone said that it would leave at 2:30. Well, they were wrong and it had already left at 2:10. Which meant I was stranded for an hour since the buses don't enjoy running on Sundays.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Elemmire's handy new excuse: Sorry I'm late, FÃ«anor made me miss the bus! What do you mean how? He tricked me and I was captured by Sauron!

FÃ«anor ate my homework!

Or maybe better... FÃ«anor used my lab results to make the palintiri! That's why I can't turn it in...

I wonder what would happen if I tried one of those...

I suppose it could be FÃ«anor's fault I missed the bus, though.

I think I was reading Falagar's post about FÃ«anor instead of looking for a bus schedule.

**Nurvingiel** · 02-13-2005, 08:21 PM

Oh... I slightly missed the point of the thread. Heh.

Getting into the spirit of things...

It's FÃ«anor's fault that Denethor went mad, because he made the palintiri!

(Yeah... not Sauron's fault. FÃ«anor's.)

ElemmÃrÃ« · 02-13-2005, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Oh... I slightly missed the point of the thread. Heh.

Pray tell, what did you think we were doing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Getting into the spirit of things...

It's FÃ«anor's fault that Denethor went mad, because he made the palintiri!

(Yeah... not Sauron's fault. FÃ«anor's.)

Heh. I never thought of that one. Of course, we don't know for sure if FÃ«anor made the palantÃ*ri, but...

Ye gods! I'm about to start arguing against myself!

But, I must be fair...

Is a sword evil because it can be used to kill? In it's nature: no, it is neither good nor evil. It's the same with the palantÃ*ri, methinks. They could be used for good or for evil. Denethor used his foolishly, and thus the consequences are upon his own head.

And yet... had FÃ«anor not theoretically created the palantÃ*ri, than Denethor would not have gone mad.

I think it is FÃ«anor's fault only in that he gave Denethor the opportunity to drive himself crazy. Of course, that can sometimes be a serious misdeed...

Minielin · 02-14-2005, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Is a sword evil because it can be used to kill? In it's nature: no, it is neither good nor evil.

Unless it's Anglachel?

brownjenkins · 02-14-2005, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minielin

Unless it's Anglachel?

good point!

ElemmÃrÃ« · 02-14-2005, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

good point!

Bad example, I suppose.

However...

"The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it." So is it even the sword itself that's evil?

Anyway... Anglachel did good as well as evil...

TÃºrin did at least one good thing with it.

Wayfarer · 02-14-2005, 03:21 AM

Hey now. Anglachel might have been a bit enthusiastic about its work, but it's quite a stretch to say it was evil. If you're a warrior and your sword is going to talk to you, better that it enjoy killing, otherwise you'd have to listen to it complain all the time.

Pytt · 02-14-2005, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falagar

Hah, I'm sure I can get something on for example Thorondor as well!

Is the pick of character just a slight bit incoincidence?

I think yoou will not! Thorondor has just done great deeds, so piss off!

And besides, nice this thread moves on a bit

Minielin · 02-14-2005, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Hey now. Anglachel might have been a bit enthusiastic about its work, but it's quite a stretch to say it was evil.

Hence the question mark... However, I think it's fair to say that it did have some negative influence on the actual mind of the bearer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

If you're a warrior and your sword is going to talk to you, better that it enjoy killing, otherwise you'd have to listen to it complain all the time.

Hehe.

ElemmÃrÃ« · 02-14-2005, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

If you're a warrior and your sword is going to talk to you, better that it enjoy killing, otherwise you'd have to listen to it complain all the time.

I'm trying to picture what TÃºrin's story would have been like if the sword was a pacifist...

So far it's quite amusing.

Kellquenti · 02-15-2005, 05:02 PM

Oh dear

been on COE for a few days and all is chaos! never mind

I'll go back there, After letting everyone know of my loyalty to everything Noldor!!

See you all in a couple of days to see what's happening

and to wind you all up again

Falagar · 02-16-2005, 06:45 PM

You're a member of Council of Elrond, Kell? What's going on over there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pytt

Is the pick of character just a slight bit incoincidence?

I think yoou will not! Thorondor has just done great deeds, so piss off!

And besides, nice this thread moves on a bit

It was the first semi-important character in the Silm I could think of. Might not be entirely coincidental.

Attalus · 02-17-2005, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Hey now. Anglachel might have been a bit enthusiastic about its work, but it's quite a stretch to say it was evil. If you're a warrior and your sword is going to talk to you, better that it enjoy killing, otherwise you'd have to listen to it complain all the time.

Have you ever played Baldur's Gate II with the Talking Sword Lilacor? It was quite annoying.

Kellquenti · 02-21-2005, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falagar

You're a member of Council of Elrond, Kell? What's going on over there?

It was the first semi-important character in the Silm I could think of. Might not be entirely coincidental.

sorry, COE is addictive! Nothing chaotic going on there, just some great RPGs (Chaos is here!!

) I shall check in frequently here to fight Feanor's corner! Ta for asking

Genealogy_dude · 02-22-2005, 07:59 PM

Yo Ellemire. I'm here. Nice thread. As you know I'm all for Feanor bashing. What if someone made a Feanor-shaped pinata? That would be awesome!

Embladyne · 02-22-2005, 08:11 PM

Yeah, a piÃ±ata would be awesome...heh heh.

Anglachel may or may not have had a bad influence on Turin, but it was Turin who was to blame for the evils he commited. And yes, Ellie, it was a good deed the sword did when it ended Turin's life.

ElemmÃrÃ« · 02-22-2005, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genealogy_dude

Yo Ellemire. I'm here. Nice thread. As you know I'm all for Feanor bashing. What if someone made a Feanor-shaped pinata? That would be awesome!

I'm candy obsessed as it is...

Well, welcome to our little corner of the world...

Now you can tell us why you hate FÃ«anor so.

And Embladyne, leave TÃºrin alone. I have a hunch that you're soon going to be dealing with an ardent TÃºrin lover... And it will be entirely our faults because we introduced her to the Silmarillion in the first place... Perhaps I can still make her go for Finrod... might have more luck with Maedhros...

Embladyne · 02-22-2005, 08:20 PM

I promise to not bother Turin as long as no-one bothers my Tuor. That's my final offer.

I really hope that I don't know who you're talking about, but I'm afraid that I do. Sad, and I thought we could be good friends after all. I'm going to have to give a good talking to that girl....

02-14-2005, 03:21 AM	#189
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Hey now. Anglachel might have been a bit enthusiastic about its work, but it's quite a stretch to say it was evil. If you're a warrior and your sword is going to talk to you, better that it enjoy killing, otherwise you'd have to listen to it complain all the time. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

02-22-2005, 07:59 PM	#197
Genealogy_dude Enting Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Rivendell, working on genealogies for Elrond and Gandalf Posts: 62	Yo Ellemire. I'm here. Nice thread. As you know I'm all for Feanor bashing. What if someone made a Feanor-shaped pinata? That would be awesome! __________________ Y amar prestar an... (ask me what it means on the boards!) He was angry because of Melkor, right down to his core. He went and slew his kinsfolk, and NOW HIS FAMILY IS CURSED!!! IT'S FEANOR'S FAULT I made Middle-Earth genealogies! Visit my Middle-Earth Genealogy website! It's a little hard to understand, I only have Aragorn's lineage on it but... visit it! www.middlearthgenealogies.5u.com

02-22-2005, 08:11 PM	#198
Embladyne Honourary Elitist Inklette Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: between the mountains and the sea Posts: 704	spam alert Yeah, a piÃ±ata would be awesome...heh heh. Anglachel may or may not have had a bad influence on Turin, but it was Turin who was to blame for the evils he commited. And yes, Ellie, it was a good deed the sword did when it ended Turin's life. __________________ Even on the pinnacle of a palace a crow does not become an eagle. My DA page

02-22-2005, 08:20 PM	#200
Embladyne Honourary Elitist Inklette Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: between the mountains and the sea Posts: 704	I promise to not bother Turin as long as no-one bothers my Tuor. That's my final offer. I really hope that I don't know who you're talking about, but I'm afraid that I do. Sad, and I thought we could be good friends after all. I'm going to have to give a good talking to that girl.... __________________ Even on the pinnacle of a palace a crow does not become an eagle. My DA page

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02-15-2005, 05:02 PM	#193
Kellquenti Enting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Midhurst UK Posts: 88	Oh dear been on COE for a few days and all is chaos! never mind I'll go back there, After letting everyone know of my loyalty to everything Noldor!! See you all in a couple of days to see what's happening and to wind you all up again