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04-23-2006, 03:09 AM | #181 | |
Elf Lord
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"Winds of War" also has been turned into a very good World War 2 series, and its sequel series "War and Remembrance" as well. I highly recommend them. It's truly shocking what depths humanity can descend to.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-23-2006 at 03:17 AM. |
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04-23-2006, 03:19 AM | #182 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Not so much on if the Germans knew, but discussion on whether the Holocaust was part of Hitler's plan from the beginning:
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04-24-2006, 10:24 AM | #183 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-26-2006, 03:18 PM | #184 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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Maybe if you were talking about the differences between a Neanderthaler and a Modern Human, it might have some bearing... Of course there's not going to be any difference between two modern humans. They are almost genetically identical. It's why epidemics are of such a primary concern, the entire planet is inhabited by a species that has very little gentic variation, and is therefore susceptiable to a mass die-off if you get a good plague going. Saying you can take a round peg and stick it in any round hole at all and it is then just like all the other round pegs is not getting us anywhere. Regardless of what color the pegs are, or what pretty designs the holes have. Quote:
They aren't shortcomings, they are the nature of the beast. Taking those kinds of risks can pay off heavily in terms of numbers of offspring. You think that the genetic traits that lead to that kind of success don't get reinforced? They certainly have in the past. I don't see any change in the foreseeable future. Quote:
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If it were true that ideas could magically transform people into model citizens, then you would expect that none of these atrocities would ever be comitted by educated people... But somehow that just doesn't match up. Quote:
And that is the problem right there. Cultural heritage don't last as long as genetic heritage. In another 5000 years we could be spread acoss 100 planets or in the midst of a dark age so deep it makes neolithic hunter-gatherers look technically advanced. Either way it doesn't matter, because succesful genetic strategies will still be effective if you're talking plasma weaponry or stone axe. Quote:
a. see more variation of behaviors across cultures b. see fewer cultures, as less viable cultures are subsumed. It's only in the past 100 years or so that you see the disappearance of cultures, and this is related more to the appearance of mass media and empirical consumerism (expansion of "markets") than anything to do with cultural revolution. Technology drives culture in fact, not the other way around. That means "culture", as viewed in the terms of Philosphy, Religion, and Tradition, has even less impact on human behavior. Technology has always had a larger influence on human behavior than abstract idealism. Philosophy, Religion, and Tradition alter to conform to Technology, not the other way around. Which has had more impact on human behavior? The ability to forge Metal or Hamurabi's Code? Not a very hard choice. Where did humans get their ability to manipulate technology? It's a sure bet that Hominids were manipulating tools long before they had sophisticated language and concepts like an afterlife. Which means that the roots of technology lie in our genetic makeup also.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 04-26-2006 at 03:40 PM. |
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04-26-2006, 03:33 PM | #185 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
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You know about behavior extinguishing? It takes a long time to extinguish a behavior that has been rewarded. The payoff doesn't have to happen anymore, you can even be punished for it, and still the behavior will persist. If it takes that long to extinguish a behavior in a neural network, imagine how long it takes to extinguish a behavior in a genetic algorithm with an environmental feedback loop. LITERALLY millenia. In terms of fucundity, if Napeolean failed, if Stalin failed, if Hitler failed, if the next 100 conquerors fail, and then you get a spate of two or 3 that succeed, what does that mean for extinguishing the behavior? It means you just went backwards. It's the right question, it's just that the time frame is too short. Ask me again in 4 or 5 millenia.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 04-26-2006 at 03:44 PM. |
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04-26-2006, 05:13 PM | #186 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Humans, like many of the animals they evolved from, are social animals and their behavior is shaped by the society they grew up in. Thus my chinese baby example. They are genetically identical, but the morality they follow is shaped by the culture they mature in.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-26-2006, 10:54 PM | #187 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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I also see people embracing death, and they do this for the same reason they did in the time of Muhammed: because of belief. Unless you completely disbelieve what they say in their suicide tapes. People don't lie in suicide tapes or letters. They say exactly what they think.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-27-2006 at 01:48 AM. |
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04-26-2006, 11:28 PM | #188 | |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
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Earlier he said he would become leader of Germany, and then bent all his efforts to that goal, achieving it. That was when he was first a prophet. The second time, he is saying "if there is a World War, the Jews will be eradicated." Given that he made the achievement of his first prophecy an active goal, it is actually somewhat implied that that is what he'll do the second time. It isn't just "oh, this will happen," it is "I will MAKE this happen."
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
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04-27-2006, 01:45 AM | #189 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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That's some good analysis, IMO . It would have seemed like quite a stretch to the people of the time, though. You're right that the implication is there, but it's not close to solid evidence of a plan or a desire that this happen. People don't come to the conclusion that a government leader is planning to murder millions because of a possibly coincidental implication.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-27-2006 at 01:53 AM. |
04-27-2006, 10:39 AM | #190 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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I also suggest you do some reading on the history of the Klan if you think this kind of reaction is just about belief systems and not about real world conditions. The Klan sprung out of a christian society who felt occupied and threatened by another christian society after defeat during the civil war, and their methods were very similar to those of the muslims in the middle east today.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-27-2006, 11:10 AM | #191 |
Elf Lord
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Since this is the Hitler thread, I'm going to respond to your post in the Muslims Thread.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
04-27-2006, 12:35 PM | #192 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Thanks heavens!
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
04-27-2006, 01:33 PM | #193 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 301
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I'll be the first to admit that it's strange. Even the most extreme K-reproduction strategy should produce at least replacement rates of reproduction, yet in most developed societies the natural rate of reproduction has dropped below that. Non-hispanic whites in the US are at 1.8, well below replacement rates, and about average among other developed countries- note that this is not some particular race suicide thing, as similar rates are found in Japan, Singapore and, my home, Taiwan. Seems like a few billion years of evolution can be overcome by a few decades of self- centredness. |
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04-27-2006, 04:17 PM | #194 |
Elf Lord
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GM,
You are most certainly correct in your final sentence. See the segment "Birth Dearth" in this reference: http://aacblog.classicalanglican.net...es/001750.html
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
04-27-2006, 05:20 PM | #195 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-29-2006, 07:03 AM | #196 | |
Elven Warrior
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04-29-2006, 11:32 AM | #197 |
Elf Lord
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GM,
Economics is merely one way self-centredness trumps, not the only one. I was supporting your last sentence: "Seems like a few billion years of evolution can be overcome by a few decades of self- centredness." Actually, all seven of the Deadly Sins would be involved and not just money issues usually considered as greed.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
04-29-2006, 03:01 PM | #198 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 301
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Hey, I've done my part - though I'm not so sure about the Western Heritage bit, since my three are only half European-descent. I've always insisted they go to (Catholic) Church. My wife's family is Catholic, and the Church here is very much tied in with the preservation of Taiwan aboriginal language and culture. The local priest is a Swiss who has been here for thirty-five years, doesn't speak English and only very little Chinese, but is an absolute world-class scholar in the local tribal language- the locals think it's hilarious when I try to communicate with him in my very poor aboriginal. Personally, I would have sent them to the Protestant Church for foreigners (we don't have enough foreigners to have denominations ) since, as an atheist, I'm sending them there for ulterior motives- to learn the Bible; cause if you don't know the Bible you don't know Western Civilisation |
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04-29-2006, 10:05 PM | #199 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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GM,
It has certainly been true that to know the Bible was to know Western culture. I found in college, thirty years ago, however, that there was an abysmal ignorance of the Bible. Literature professors had to spend overmuch time connecting the class with the Biblical allusions. I think your plan for your children is sound as regards cultural education on the Western side. But, what if they become believers? It is a risk.... On the other hand, the benefits to being believers far outway the cultural benefits. Christianity has adapted to many cultures over time and space while retaining its relevance historically and spiritually.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
07-27-2006, 02:29 PM | #200 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Hey guys! Look! Roosevelt and Churchill were communists! Why else would they be photgraphed with Stalin?
http://www.worth1000.com/web/media/3..._churchill.jpg and apperantly Hitler, besides being a christian, was also Muslim! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...80px-Mufti.gif
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