10-27-2002, 08:17 PM | #181 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-27-2002, 08:26 PM | #182 | |
Elf Lord
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I can fully understand your saying that if this spiritual realm is only nice words, the example cannot work. I can see that you have to have some evidence before believing in something, and all that I am trying to do now is encourage you to go to the place from which you can find that evidence. The place where I and every other Christian who knows God found their evidence: God himself. In all of the other religions, you have to seek God, and it is usually a search that takes years for you to come close to ascending to his level. Christianity is the only religion where God reaches down to us. And rather than taking years of study, revelation can come the very same day that you ask for it. There are few things that God wants for us to have before we come to him, and these are them: We have to have a sincere desire for the truth, we have to be willing to pray, and we have to be willing to go by his time frame, not our own. The reason I believe in Christianity was originally because I was brought up that way. That's something I expect most of you can understand. For a long time, I believed simply because of that, and because I believed my parents' accounts. However, my reason for believing changed when I encountered God myself, and heard his voice. Finally, about miracles again. I have already demonstrated that science doesn't disprove miracles, but simply says that the likelihood of their happening is nonexistent unless some outside influence causes them. If you want accounts of modern day miracles, I can describe to you several books you would be interested in reading. If you want me to list to you some of that material, ask me and I will. RÃ*an probably could also give you some good suggestions as far as those, I expect. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-27-2002 at 08:52 PM. |
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10-27-2002, 09:37 PM | #183 |
Hoplite Nomad
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But you are begging the question with your faith.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
10-27-2002, 10:27 PM | #184 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Sorry LE, You are talking in circles,
The only way you can believe in God, is to believe in God, so believe in God and you will believe in God.
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! |
10-27-2002, 11:19 PM | #185 |
Long lost mooter
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I don't mean to change the subject, but I'm wondering if the agnostics/ atheists think the universe is infinite, and if not, what is at the end? (And don't say "a restaurant!") If this was covered in a similar thread, feel free to ignore this post!
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10-27-2002, 11:32 PM | #186 |
Elf Lord
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No, no, no, no, no. I'm not talking in circles. If I've been too verbose to be understood, I apologize.
I'm saying that science cannot prove or disprove Christianity, and if you want it to be proved or disproved for yourself, you have to be willing to look for the truth. You don't have to believe that God exists to ask him if he does exist. So, let's say you don't believe that he exists. But you know your judgement is fallible so you ask him if he exists, and he answers you and says that yes, he does exist. Now you believe that he exists, because you've heard him speak. So now you can have faith. Is that plainer? Afro elf, I'm not trying to convince anyone with my faith, I'm simply pointing out the existence of many witnesses, that they might not all be liars, and that if they're not, then Christianity might be something that's worth exploring. Azalea, there is a theory that connects with the theory of the Big Bang. In that one, everything will stretch to a limit and then gravity pull everything together again, pulling all matter to a point and causing the destruction of everything, and possibly the spreading out of everything again. There might be newer theories. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-28-2002 at 01:19 AM. |
10-28-2002, 12:09 AM | #187 |
Long lost mooter
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I just wonder what they say is beyond that limit.
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10-28-2002, 12:44 AM | #188 |
Elf Lord
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You know what, I'm a Christian, and I don't have any idea what's outside of the universe either. Or if there is an outside of the universe; you know, explorers of old thought that the earth must have an edge. Now we know that that isn't true. It could be the same with the universe, although of course that's entirely just an idea, nothing more. What do you think is beyond the universe?
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10-28-2002, 01:24 AM | #189 |
Hoplite Nomad
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Yes, I understand you are not trying to convince us;however, you are still beging the question.
But this conversation will not evolve pass this point so we can just nip it here. As far as the end maybe nothing but void.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
10-28-2002, 01:52 AM | #190 |
Elf Lord
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Searching for truth
I'm not trying to argue with you either. You know what, Afro elf, Lizra, Cassiopeia, some of your posts here have implied, particularly for Lizra and Cassiopeia, that you want to believe in a loving God such as the Christians believe. You also want to know the truth. This is the largest assumption I have been making in all of my posts here, discussing Christianity and science. I've been assuming that you want to know the truth (Not necessarily only Christian truth), but you want to know what is really true. You, I am also assuming, don't necessarily believe that you have complete truth already. This truth that you lack can be scientific, spiritual, whatever, but I'm assuming that you know that you could be mistaken in what you believe, and you are open to truth that you don't know already.
I haven't been trying to win an argument, here. What I have been trying to do is answer all questions that are asked, questions that might impede you from coming to truth. What I have been trying to do is give you pointers that will guide you in this search for truth, and I hope that your searches will be successful, and that each of your different paths will finally lead you to God. Some of you might be becoming rather tired of this long deviation from the main topic here, which is "Should evolution be allowed in schools?". This topic, I believe, was a very controversial one from the start, and naturally would lead to all sorts of tangents. So it has. But now I think we had best return to the main topic. If any of you wants to email me about what we have recently been discussing, or has any further questions, PM me and I will give you my email address and we can continue from there. And whether you do this or not, whether you listen to what I have said or ignore it (Which is your choice, naturally), you are all in my prayers. God bless you. |
10-28-2002, 02:02 AM | #191 |
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Once again lief its been nice to carry on this discussion with the bashing that tends to happen.
I just find your "ways of knowing the truth" suspect and I am sure you feel mine are two. again if only all "disagreements be so easy
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
10-28-2002, 01:33 PM | #192 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-28-2002, 01:41 PM | #193 |
Elven Warrior
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Begging the question, used in the sense of logical arguments, is when you use a premise that is the same as your conclusion. Basically you end up talking in circles.
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10-28-2002, 03:36 PM | #194 |
Elf Lord
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Aha, is that what it means???
I actually didn't know either . Well, I could respond to that easily enough, I expect, but I don't know how many of you are truly interested in continuing along this tangent. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-28-2002 at 03:42 PM. |
10-28-2002, 06:15 PM | #195 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Oh, ok - thanks, TBA. So basically "you have not offered a valid solution to the problem"?
What a funny expression - I wonder where it came from. So A-E, is that what you meant?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-28-2002, 07:11 PM | #196 | |
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Begging the question can mean arguing in cirlces or assuming the antecedent Example" The bible is the word of God. How do you know. Because the bible says And how do you know that bible is correct? Because of God....
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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10-28-2002, 07:21 PM | #197 |
Bank'ress of Sith
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Lief,
You said something about the end of the galaxy, or universe (?). Scientists sent some space robot (or whatever they send into space) that takes pictures for VERY long distance. Anyway, they said that they KNOW where the end of THIS galaxy is, BUT there is some sort of "ice-belt" that seemingly keeps "outside" things from coming in and insdie things coming out (very simplified, sorry, I can't find the newspaper article on the net, so this is completely from memory). If that is what you are talking about.
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10-28-2002, 07:50 PM | #198 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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oh, ok, that's helpful - I really did not know what that expression meant - thanks, A-E
Well, I think I'm about done here. I'd like to comment on one thing that A-E said, though, but not until tonight, when I can get some quiet time (or possibly tomorrow - just remembered I'm babysitting my little niece tonight - my 3 kids plus 1 more - one will be bound to have some problems with something! ) It's been very enjoyable talking with you, people, and I'll try to get my post out soon, for anyone that is interested.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-29-2002, 05:54 PM | #199 | |
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Aeryn, I'm sorry to say this, but I think your ideas are very mixed up. There is an ice belt outside our solar system. I really don't know what you mean. We know what is outside our galaxy: billions and billions of other galaxies.
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10-29-2002, 07:29 PM | #200 |
Elf Lord
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Doesn't that make one feel small?
Afro elf, I think you'll have to explain better what your problem is with what I've been saying, if you want me to be able to respond to it. And about the thing you posted about the Bible . . . It is called the Word of God for a reason. Both because it is true, and also because the Lord can still speak through it. It isn't simply because the Bible says that it's the Word of God that we believe it is; it's because God still talks through those words of the past to speak to us in the present. Hearing him talk through his Word is another spiritual experience, but I think whoever wrote up that circular argument had the facts wrong, or didn't quite know what they were talking about. |
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