03-29-2004, 10:43 AM | #1 | |||||||
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Of the Ruin of Doriath
Of the Ruin of Doriath
This chapter begins with what is really a sort of ending for the last chapter. Quote:
Now clearly, Húrin wasn’t a happy camper, because he saw all that Morgoth had done to his family, but this was seen in the way Morgoth wanted him to see it, and Morgoth tried to throw a bad light on Thingol and Melian’s part in the whole thing. But he decided it was time to let Húrin go and see of what use he could be put. He (very badly apparently) feigned mercy. Húrin was no idiot, and clearly saw through Morgoth’s act, but thus being no idiot, also took his freedom. This was a year after Túrin’s death, and a full 28 years since the fateful day of the Nirnaeth when Húrin was captured. He was old, and looked it, but stood tall and proud, walked with a staff and carried a sword. In Hithlum the Easterlings left him alone, as did the remainders of his own people (because they thought him in league with Angband.) Húrin was an extremely bitter man by now, but wandered somewhat aimlessly until he saw the Crissaegrim, and remembered Turgon. So he went to what was (unbeknownst to him) the remainder of the old way of escape, now blocked, and he could not see the eagles. So he called out, but Turgon feared Húrin’s allegiance as well. Later he sent eagles to find him, but he was gone. This also was how Morgoth discovered the general area of Gondolin. One night while sleeping he heard Morwen calling to him and it seemed as if her voice was coming from Brethil, so he went there, and found her on the night of her death. Quote:
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It is interesting that a minstrel wrote a seemingly prophetic song, which stated that, this mound and stone would remain, and it was not submerged in Beleriand’s ruin, and became Tol Morwen. Quote:
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Last edited by Finrod Felagund : 03-01-2007 at 03:11 AM. |
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03-29-2004, 10:46 AM | #2 | ||
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Thingol sat for a while after and thought how gorgeous the necklace was and how hot he would look wearing it, especially if the Silmaril was set amidst the other jewels. So he asked some dwarves visiting to take that task. And so what were considered the greatest crafting of dwarves and elves were to be mated (metaphorically of course.) And by Jove, when they finished, the necklace was hot stuff.
But the dwarves wanted it, and Thingol said some stuff that really pissed them off, and that on top of the Silmaril’s lure was too much, and they killed Elwe Thingol, first king of a Beleriandic kingdom and tallest of the Eldar. The dwarves attempted to escape but most were killed and the necklace retrieved. However, a couple escaped, got home to Nogrod and gave a bogus story about how they were wrongfully attacked. So the dwarves of Nogrod marched on Doriath. (Tolkien indicated elsewhere that they asked their neighbours, the dwarves of Belegost for help but were refused.) Melian sat for a long time, contemplating her relationship with Thingol, but eventually decided to return to Valinor. She spoke only to Mablung, giving him the Nauglam*r and telling him to get word to Beren and Luthien, which he did. Quote:
However, Beren, Dior and the Green elves of Ossiriand ambushed them with the only recorded instance of Ents outside the Third Age, (they destroyed any escaping dwarves.) Beren slew the king of Nogrod and washed the Nauglam*r of blood, but the treasure of Doriath he dumped in the river, because the dwarf king cursed it. He took the necklace back to Luthien, and when she wore the Silmaril, set within the wondrous gems and gold, she became the most beautiful being outside of Valinor. Dior, and his wife Nimloth (one of Celeborn’s relatives) went and reclaimed Doriath. But one day a green-elf arrived at Menegroth, and brought the Nauglam*r, indicating the death of Beren and Luthien. Dior then clasped it around his neck, but word of the Silmaril came to Feanor’s sons (remember them? It’s been a while eh?) And Celegorm (note: not Maehdros or Maglor) led the brothers in an attack on Doriath. Dior and Nimloth were both killed, as were Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir. And Dior’s sons, Elured and Elurin were left to die in the woods. (Maglor later tried to find them, unsuccessfully.) This was the second slaying of elf by elf. And it is interesting to note that even with the Dagor Bragollach, and the Nirnaeth etc., none of the sons of Feanor died until the attack on Doriath. Quote:
Wow…sorry it’s a bit long (and late) but covers a lot… Last edited by Finrod Felagund : 04-22-2006 at 12:36 AM. |
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03-29-2004, 10:48 AM | #3 |
King of Nargothrond
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Discussion Questions
1. Three very fascinating yet underrated characters make their exits here…lets discuss a) Morwen…what did Hurin mean “She was not conquered”? Was it because, unlike her children, she refused to take her own life? How about her beauty, she must’ve been pretty hot eh? b) Melian…what exactly was the Girdle? Was she unable or unwilling to remain after Thingol’s death? Compare her exit here to that in BoLT (those who can). (In BoLT, she wanders in grief until she is found by Beren and healed by Luthien, at which point she leaves.) c) Mablung of the heavy hand…he seemed to be assigned the role of a gopher much of the time, but was friendly to Turin, and a participant in the Hunting of the Wolf. Also, with Beleg, he was the only one from Doriath to participate in the Battles with the Noldor. They are all such rich characters, who could’ve been cool to have seen developed more. 2. Why would the grave of Turin, Nienor and Morwen be one of the parts of Beleriand to remain unsunken? (Here’s another example of prophecy in the Atani. It was a minstrel of Brethil.) What gave it such a privilege? 3. Discuss some “What ifs…” What if Turgon had sent the eagles to fetch Hurin immediately? What if Dior (or Thingol for that matter) had given the Silmaril to Feanor’s sons? Etc. 4. Why did Celegorm lead the attack on Doriath rather than Maehdros or Maglor? Miscelllaneous: Hurin in general, Thingol in general, the inclusion of ents in the ambush of the dwarves, the continuing impact of Finrod and his life and death
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03-29-2004, 11:26 AM | #4 | |
The Tall
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Text sources to use in this Chapter:
The Tale of the Nauglafring in HoME 2. The Tale of Turambar in HoME 2. Sketch of the Mythology in HoME 4. Quenta Noldorinwa in HoME4. The Wanderings of Húrin in HoME 11. The Tale of Years in HoME 11. We now know that it was D*rhavel, the mannish poet from Dor-Lomin who wrote the Narn. There is a thread that discusses that more in detail. I wanted to point out something very interesting in this chapter. When CT was doing the work in putting up a Published Silmarillion, this was the chapter that was the most difficult to do. Look at the note in the End of the Tale of Years in HoME 11: Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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03-29-2004, 11:49 AM | #5 | ||||
The Tall
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Quote:
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One thing to remember is that the account of the Quenta (chapter 14) it is indeed very much reduced when compared to the Tale of the Nauglafring. I think that one of the most important thing that really moved me where the words in the Tale of Turambar when Húrin speaks with Thingol: Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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03-29-2004, 12:56 PM | #6 | ||||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Nice intro FF!
Quote:
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Also, I've never read anywhere that it was Maglor and not Maedhros who searched for Dior's sons. Where do you take that from? Quote:
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04-09-2004, 04:06 AM | #7 |
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I think it's a heartbreaking irony that it is Húrin who initiates the fall of both Gondolin and Doriath, and also the ruin of his homeland, Brethil. Because of Morgoth's cunning evil, disaster is following in his footsteps.
Poor Húrin.
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04-09-2004, 02:07 PM | #8 | |
The Tall
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Quote:
I would also say that it was awesome the way that Húrin could withstand all that torment that Morgoth put on him over those 28 years in Angband.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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04-09-2004, 02:38 PM | #9 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Quote:
Húrin is different in the HoME books, not so clear-cut a hero as in the Sil, but he is still my favourite Adan.
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04-09-2004, 03:09 PM | #10 | |
AngAdan
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Quote:
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04-09-2004, 03:17 PM | #11 | |
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Quote:
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04-09-2004, 05:08 PM | #12 | ||
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Quoted by Maedhros from HoME 11, Tale of Years:
Quote:
Quote:
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04-20-2004, 03:00 PM | #13 |
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I feel so bad for Hurin! And I don't think badly of either Morwen nor Turin for what some consider their displays of pride. Who's to say things would have come out any better for them even if they had NOT been so proud? Morgoth was STILL doing all he could to make their lives miserable, so he could watch Hurin suffer for knowledge of it.
Then when Hurin is finally released, he's so broken he just can't do anything right. But the son he left as a small boy has become a great hero - and died needlessly after achieving his greatest deed. The daughter he never knew lost her memory long enough to cause grief and shame - all by innocent ignorance. His other daughter was long dead - gone while he was away. His wife stayed faithful and true, but was worn away by age and hardship. What a sad, tragic man. What loss he has endured. He knows he will have no grand-children, that his line is ended (though his brother's line will go on to greatness, unbeknownst to him). His actions in this chapter are so sad - but so easy to understand: killing Nim, quarreling with Thingol (not always an admirable character himself) and calling out to Turgon... So sad. Such a display of how evil can be at work in the life of a man - even how the evil of another can destroy the life of a man. Such a tragic figure. |
03-01-2007, 03:16 AM | #14 |
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Thingol seems suprisingly hot-headed sometimes...considering he is known to be so wise.
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05-28-2012, 05:15 PM | #15 |
AngAdan
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I say so.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
05-28-2012, 08:07 PM | #16 |
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So you wait eight years, then want to start a fight over it!
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05-29-2012, 01:16 PM | #17 |
AngAdan
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Consider how many more persons could have died fighting Morgoth rather than each other but for Turin's overweaning pride and sense of entitlement and priviledge, and how Morwen's holding own to the irrelevant trappings of a destroyed lordship contributed to this.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 05-29-2012 at 01:18 PM. |
12-08-2018, 07:56 AM | #18 |
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This chapter does go to show for me that if Thingol hadn't involved himself in the silmaril-business, much evil could have been prevented but he could have been a king without parallel.
His position had been somewhat overclassed by all the newcomer Noldorin Kings and Princes who outdid him in power, skill and knowledge (and sometimes even in wisdom) but he outlasted them (almost) all with the aid of Melian. His interactions with Túrin are a far cry from the attitude he had for humans before Beren came along. This was newly gained wisdom. And he doesn't rise to the bait and offer angry or proud answers to Húrin when the latter rebukes the King for the death of Húrin's family. Old Thingol would have been furious. New Thingol has learned the valour of Men and has pity instead. Pity indeed that he has not yet learned the worth of Dwarves. But then the silmaril was at work and it had no better influence on the Dwarves than it had on Thingol so one wonders whether fairer and kinder words could have saved Thingol and Menegroth at that point. I am curious also to the motivation of the Ents. They are absent from pretty much all of the Beleriand history and now they suddenly appear once and mop up what remains of the Nogrod army. Why? I wonder, and why now? Did the Elves of Ossiriand ask for their aid? Melian was already gone, so it can't have been her. Or was the animosity between Ents and the axe-bearing Dwarves already present? |
12-08-2018, 11:54 PM | #19 |
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Ents are hostile towards Dwarves. Treebeard’s reaction towards Gimli is one such example, and a mild one at that. Yavanna begged Eru for servants to offset the effects of her “husband” Aulë’s Dwarves, and she created Ents for that purpose with Eru’s permission. That makes their hostility toward axe-wielding Dwarves innate and intentional.
Moreover, Ents have an affinity for Elves, which Treebeard also reports: Elves taught Ents to speak, and the Ents do not forget it. (And since Treebeard is the oldest of the Ents, the strong suggestion is that they taught him to speak.) Elu Thingol was the acknowledged king of all the Sindar in Beleriand: even Eöl the Dark Elf and the Green Elves admitted his suzerainty. The Dwarves of Nogrod murdered Thingol. No doubt the Ents knew Melian and what she was, too, and likely knew that she was akin to Yavanna. They had probably encountered Lúthien and Beren after their return from Mandos. That seems enough to explain their league with Beren and the Green Elves to intervene and attack the marauding Dwarves. |
12-10-2018, 07:44 AM | #20 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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While I agree with what you're saying, my point mainly is that a lot of their history is lacking.
While predicted from the start, you can actually see the animosity between Elves and Dwarves arise: killing the Petty Dwarves because the Elves thought they were animals, taking over their abandoned home to build Nargothrond, and now the sack of Doriath... No wonder Legolas and Gimli took a lot of warming up. And without Galadriel's intervention, neither may ever have reconsidered their stance. But here there are reasons for the discontent other than merely the prophecy. But there is no such history with the Ents. All we know is that they suddenly decide to enter established history with an agressive act towards the Dwarves. No motivation or priors is given and while their good connections with the Elves has been mentioned more than once, they never come to their aid either. They never engage Morgoth's forces that we hear of in the defense of Eldar. They could have planted the entire barren Anfauglith with trees as a nice up-yours to Melkor. They could have located Dior's lost boys in the woods before they starved. They could likely have routed the entire Nogrod army to start with! But they didn't. Why not then and why now and afterwards no more? What changed? We are told of the animosity between the Children of Yavanna and those of Aulë. It was predicted even from the start but we're never shown the actual process. Unlike with Elves and Dwarves. So that leaves plenty for interpretation. |
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